Earlier this week, I had the opportunity to attend and exhibit at the Baltimore Home Based Travel Agent Show & Conference. All in all it was a good show and some good quality vendors. I was disappointed that Denyse and I did not connect as I would have loved to hear her impression of my challenge to her.
I asked Denyse to simply approach a variety of vendors and without identifying her host, just begin a conversation about YTB. I did, and the result was as expected--they feel YTB is a necessary evil. (Those are my words and not theirs) Many of the smaller niche suppliers were unaware of YTB.
I spoke with many YTB people and many are very happy with the program, but there were also many there whose purpose was to find a new host. I know for a fact that 4 RTAs signed up with Travel Planners at the show. One RTA that I had had a very contentious email fight several months back, actually hugged me and said I was right all along and she was done with YTB and her four friends who were in YTB are going to be getting out as well. To be honest, as she was coming up to me, I was not sure what to expect and hoping for a kick to my good knee! To Nia, if you are reading this--thanks for your honesty and for the hug. For the record, I do not hug and kiss men as some others may.
I did not see any YTB Police presence. If they were there, they were well undercover and likely not doing their job. There were no green t-shirts, and at the travel events (classes, meal functions, trade show) there was no recruiting. But up near Einsteins Bagels, a Rep was running what amounted to a three card monte game. He had his laptop open and was showing the presentations--he was surrounded by other Reps and RTAs all hanging on his word and agreeing that it was the best investment anyone could make, etc. Then he offered to to pay for a CLIA membership to anyone that signed up under him before the end of the show. Granted, this was not at the show technically, but it was in a high traffic area where those attending the show (and the NeoCon conference as well) would pass to get to the classrooms and ballrooms.
Which brings me to the point I made yesterday about the huge loophole for CLIA and their membership. This YTB Rep was offering to pay $399 for a membership because he earned much more from having the downline. The new RTA then needs no training, no enrollments in the ACC or MCC program to obtain the identification card. This loophole will not work in a SOT state (MD, VA, DC, NJ, and DE are not). CLIA acknowledged this loophole but felt that few RTAs would pay the additional $399 to become members.
Let's take a look at getting a CLIA card the right way through YTB, the loophole way, and Monte's way:
Option 1: Attend FCT at a cost of $149. Take a CLIA exam online at a cost of $30. Enroll in the ACC or MCC program at $65. Apply for the identification card at $49. Total cost is $293.00. Now keep in mind, in order to maintain this credential, you need to complete the ACC or MCC program which include numerous courses (additional money), numerous ship inspections at your expense, several personal sailings at your expense, and actually selling. Without knowing the details, the cost of these extras is probably close to $2500 at a minimum.I had the pleasure of overhearing many of the questions being lobbed at CLIA at their booth and one I heard a lot was, "What forms do I need to fill out to get the free cruises/discounts?" No inquiry on the requirements, what CLIA does, the training, the changes. Mostly about how to get the perks. A Traverus member even argued with the CLIA representative that he indeed did have a CTA because he bought the Traverus website. I am still at a loss why The Travel Institute allows that to go unchecked. There was another argument from a current CLIA cardholder that was very upset about the production requirement for her to renew the card through YTB. The end result was she was told to "suck it up and sell some cruises".
Option 2: If you are in a non SOT state, open a business checking account and pay CLIA $399 for an agency membership. Apply for the identification card at $29--it's a reduced price for the first two cards. Total cost is $428. Yes it is more, but there are zero requirements at this point. Yes you need to renew it annually, but renewals are discounted. And if you are in it for the perks (as most are) one reduced rate sailing would more than pay for the membership and the card. And if the ACC requirements are $2500 you can renew CLIA for nearly 7 years!
Option 3: Let Monte pay your $399 and you fork over the $29 for a card. Total cost $29
"CLIA acknowledged this loophole but felt that few RTAs would pay the additional $399 to become members."
ReplyDeleteIs CLIA smoking crack or what? Of course they are going to pay the additional money because they think the CLIA card validates them and they can use it for discounts/freebies.
The sad thing is that it would be very easy for CLIA to close this loophole. All they have to do is require proof of a minimum of amount of cruise sales during the preceding 12 months by the agency in order for the owner of the agency to qualify for a card. I'm willing to negotiate whether that minimum amount should be a number of cabins sold, a dollar amount, or some combination thereof. It should not be that difficult to prove for any legitimate agency.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you Steve. There should be minimum requirements of the agency before they are just given the cards. CLIA needs to wake up. I know this is a cash cow for them..but they need to see the bigger picture.
ReplyDeleteIt might be a cash cow right now, but with numbers falling fast, eventually they will have to bow to the pressure.
ReplyDeleteIf they don't manage this problem now, when YTB is no more, they will have alot of very angry TAs. Then where will the money come from?
Wow, as hard as it is for you all to believe I definitely do not agree with those comments about the "free cruises". People SHOULD just suck it up and get on with the requirements.
ReplyDeleteJohn, since you saw the presentation on the laptop did you even see whether it was the new one or the old one?
I know Denyse was disappointed also that she did not get there. She had some challenges in clearing out her mom's apt before the end of the month.
And how would CLIA know if new agencies signing up are affiliated with YTB or not? Nowhere in the application does it ask for consortia affiliation, host ageny affiliation, or anything else that might link an individual agency applicant with YTB.
ReplyDeleteCLIA can look the other way and remain oblivious as to whether any of their new agency applicants are really YTB RTAs circumventing the ID card booking requirements.
There HAS to be a way NOT to allow people to circumvent requirements. What good is a CLIA card if you nothing about cruises?? I don't even agree with the non-profits getting RTA ID cards. That has certainly been addressed.
ReplyDeleteJakki---I did not realize they were handing out the cards to the non-profits too. Nice touch from YTB!
ReplyDeleteThe presentation was the new one. I watched the part where it said YTB was public (and had a graphic of a company whose stock is performing well), and how the "websites" sold $414 million dollars last year. You know the part where the truth gets s t r e t c h e d ! ! !
Yes, two persons from a non-profit get JUST the RTA ID cards, NOT a CLIA card.
ReplyDeleteWhat does a YTB RTA ID get somebody?
ReplyDeleteCorrection: it does NOT say $414 was sold through websites. The COMPANY sold that amount (though it does not say it). And the COMPANY DID sell that amount, whether through the websites or the travel company - it was sold. The truth was not stretched.
ReplyDeleteeddie said...
ReplyDeleteWhat does a YTB RTA ID get somebody?
Not much, it just identifies you as a part of the company. Some people use them for perks and upgrades.
"Jakki said...
ReplyDeleteCorrection: it does NOT say $414 was sold through websites. The COMPANY sold that amount (though it does not say it). And the COMPANY DID sell that amount, whether through the websites or the travel company - it was sold. The truth was not stretched."
OK, it was bent.
Jakki---listen to the presentation. About the 3:57 mark it says in 2006 YTB sold $226 million through the websites. In 2997 we sold $414M.
ReplyDeletePerhaps you need to know what your recruiting videos say.
Ann it was not bent. It was stated. Go here:
ReplyDeletehttp://enhanced.ytb.com/default.aspx?wa=mcmillon
Unfortunately their player does not offer a timer, nor does it allow you to fast forward--so you need to listen to the drivel, but pay attention just before 4 minutes into it!
Doesn't any YTB RTA know who VacationCentral is?
ReplyDeleteJohn said...
ReplyDeleteJakki---listen to the presentation. About the 3:57 mark it says in 2006 YTB sold $226 million through the websites. In 2997 we sold $414M.
Perhaps you need to know what your recruiting videos say.
John, I looked at it JUST before I made that post because I knew you would refute it. It says through the websites in 2006. It DOES NOT say in 2007. You even have it there. I know what it says. I watched it 7 times the night it was released AND read the notes.
Ann, CTC said...
ReplyDeleteOK, it was bent.
Ok, you'll have it your way anyway. Can ANYTHING we say EVER be right???
YTB Travel Network did not sell $414M in 2007. They sold $211M.
ReplyDeleteThey cannot even substantiate the $226M in 2006 (and I am fine with whatever you want to claim) but $226M was NOT booked through the websites in 2006 because I have volumes of emails from RTAs telling me how they book it all direct and they are real travel agents.
Also in the video, it says that because of a "little thing called the internet" and YTB's idea to put travel and the internet together you are putting traditional agencies out of business. Yet Kim says he is not competing against TTAs. But the SEC filings list us as competitors.
I encourage others to listen to the video and see what they feel is being said. I will grant you that they specifically did not say that in 2007 $414M was sold through the websites. But if that was not the intent, it is very deceiving. But then again, deception seems to be a way of life at YTB
eddie said...
ReplyDeleteDoesn't any YTB RTA know who VacationCentral is?
Of course I do. It's a brand of the company that sells travel along with the websites.
John said...
ReplyDeleteYTB Travel Network did not sell $414M in 2007. They sold $211M.
I will grant you that they specifically did not say that in 2007 $414M was sold through the websites. But if that was not the intent, it is very deceiving. But then again, deception seems to be a way of life at YTB
If Vacation Central has merged with YTB Travel Network, they are one and YTB Travel Network sold $414. Why is the activity of no other company separated when there is a merge?? I know - they aren't YTB.
And thank you for granting that John. I think the better statement is deception is the way of MARKETING. Come on, look at Obama/McCain. EVERYTHING they say is deceptive - stating the truth in a way that others perceive something different. Whenever other products that are compared to their competitors are marketed, there is deception. It is NOT just YTB's marketing.
FYI Jakki--you probably ought to call someone and ask them exactly what VC and REZConnect does. You seem to be misinformed!
ReplyDeleteThere was no merger. The video is about the travel flopportunity which is one of three separate companies operated by YTB Int'l. Please note that they do not disclose this third company--the promotional materials all say there are TWO companies.
ReplyDeleteAnyhow REZConnect Technologies is the third company and they operate Vacation Central.
When YTB reported the numbers to TW, they could not show a downward movement, so to bolster their standing, they reported as YTB International (not YTBTN) and they included sales from REZConnect/Vacation Central. To their credit they did disclose that YTBTN sold only $211M. However the recruiting video discusses YTBTN. Can you show me where it references REZConnect or Vacation Central?
The reality is that travel sales for YTBTN have been declining over the past two years. The number of Reps and RTAs has also been declining and we likely will see proof of that again in 15 days
I am well aware that REZconnect provides YTB technology software and services. They also build reservation systems for suppliers. They also sell travel as Vacation Central.
ReplyDeleteFor YTBTN, they service our consumer websites.
But you know more than I do.
John said...
ReplyDeleteThere was no merger.
There was no merger???? This is the headline from the Press Release:
REZconnect Technologies, Inc. and YTB Merger Create Mega Travel Organization
But again, you know more than I.
That was the merger that brought YTB into the fold. YTB was a client and ended up acquiring REZConnect from Brent. Hence YTB was not required to do any of the SEC filings and was never investigated by the SEC for "going public" as you all like to say.
ReplyDeleteYour post above indicated (or alluded) that there was a recent merger between last year and this year to explain the TW numbers.
Speaking of Michael Brent--have you seen how he is ditching the YTB stock he was given in return for his company?
You've been conning non-profits into signing up by offering them a YTB Card? And that gets them what? Laughed at??
ReplyDeleteThat's about the sleaziest thing I've heard of. I sure hope Tim Logan from the St Louis Dispatch is reading this blog. If YTB has been conning charities into believing they would get a discount by signing up with them, that's something the public needs to be made aware of.
Have you also noticed that YTB claims to sell flowers and cars, but yet none of those things are broken out on their profit and loss. I wonder how much of YTB's sales of flowers and cars were lumped in with the travel sales, and then reported to Travel Weekly?
John said...
ReplyDeleteThat was the merger that brought YTB into the fold. YTB was a client and ended up acquiring REZConnect from Brent. Hence YTB was not required to do any of the SEC filings and was never investigated by the SEC for "going public" as you all like to say.
Your post above indicated (or alluded) that there was a recent merger between last year and this year to explain the TW numbers.
You said there was NO merger. I never indicated nor alluded it was recent. You just don't like anything I say.
kholmes said...
ReplyDeleteYou've been conning non-profits into signing up by offering them a YTB Card? And that gets them what? Laughed at??
That's about the sleaziest thing I've heard of. I sure hope Tim Logan from the St Louis Dispatch is reading this blog. If YTB has been conning charities into believing they would get a discount by signing up with them, that's something the public needs to be made aware of.
There you go again Kate talking out of your butt. Non profits are NOT offered a card to sign up. They are given the opportunity to raise much needed unrestricted funds which do not have to come from their supporters. They are very appreciative of this because non profits have many challenges in fundraising. These funds allow them to continue to offer needed services in our communities. The card is NOT even spoken of until they are enrolled in the program. And it still doesn't signify anything except that they are a part of the Non Profit Fundraising Program.
So, if you're reading this Tim Logan - get it right! There is NO conning. Non profits fundraise with travel. Is there anything wrong with that Kate?? Ships n Trips has a similar program.
YTB and the YTB REP make a profit from the website sale and every transaction made via the non profits site. Glad to know YTB is really looking after themselves first.
ReplyDeleteeddie said...
ReplyDeleteYTB and the YTB REP make a profit from the website sale and every transaction made via the non profits site. Glad to know YTB is really looking after themselves first.
Susan, Ships N Trips Travel, has a similar program. They do the work - booking travel, servicing clients, tracking and reporting donations earned while the charities and schools benefit. Do you really think Susan takes NOTHING for her work???? Come on - AGAIN, its YTB. We're supposed to do everything that everybody does AND NOT GET COMMISSIONS?? But its not benefiting first. The non profit is FIRST.
I won't tell you what you sound like Eddie.
Susan EARNS it. YTB provides a website, for a cost. The NP does all the work and YTB benefits.
ReplyDeleteI swear if YTB had a blood drive they would charge for every pint donated.
eddie said...
ReplyDeleteSusan EARNS it. YTB provides a website, for a cost. The NP does all the work and YTB benefits.
Once again Eddie, you're WRONG. The NP DOES NOT do all of the work. They're in the business of preventing pregancies, saving souls, feeding families, curing diseases or otherwise changing our communities. They are not in the business of booking travel.
As people book ON their site, commissions are earned just like anywhere else. When they have group events, I AM THE ONE WHO DOES THE WORK FOR MY NPs - they do not. You begrudge me from getting what I've earned just like Susan???
Jakki how much are you and YTB profiting from each non-profit sale? What percentage of each sale goes to the non-profit? Any why, at any point, would a person from the non-profit be offered a YTB card?
ReplyDeletekholmes said...
ReplyDeleteJakki how much are you and YTB profiting from each non-profit sale? What percentage of each sale goes to the non-profit? Any why, at any point, would a person from the non-profit be offered a YTB card?
The NP earns 60% of the commissions - more than Susan's program. I only earn 10%. AGAIN, ITS AN ID CARD WHICH GIVES THEM CONTACT INFO. It is NOT any type of travel card.
So you earn 10%, and YTB gets 30% for doing nothing, and the charity only gets 60%? And how is this reported in the travel sales? Is YTB also claiming this 70% as a donation to charity?
ReplyDeleteNot only does the charity only get 60% but the Old Fart has the nerve to charge the NP $499.95 to sign up for this program to be able to sell YTB's over priced travel which can always be found cheaper anywhere on the internet and even less expensive than that, through an actual Travel Agent.
ReplyDeleteYou can bet The Old Fart is taking a tax deduction. He has found a way to screw over a NP, make money from them and get a tax write off to boot. A real man of God.
ReplyDeletekholmes said...
ReplyDeleteSo you earn 10%, and YTB gets 30% for doing nothing, and the charity only gets 60%? And how is this reported in the travel sales? Is YTB also claiming this 70% as a donation to charity?
You all hate YTB so much you think they should get nothing. YTB does nothing???? They service the websites, maintains and updates the information, tracks the NPs commissions, maintains a contact list for the NP, provides training to the NP, designs their marketing materials (FREE), sets up a 2 hour orientation session, and works with me to set the travel events up. THEY SHOULD GET NOTHING?????
Only 60%???? Susan gives 15%!!! Those travel sales are reported just as any other sales that are booked. Why would that 70% be a donation to the NP?? They earn their commissions, I earn my commissions and YTB earns its commissions.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteNot only does the charity only get 60% but the Old Fart has the nerve to charge the NP $499.95 to sign up for this program to be able to sell YTB's over priced travel which can always be found cheaper anywhere on the internet and even less expensive than that, through an actual Travel Agent.
Sorry to disappoint you but I've taken enough training and education at this point to qualify to work with non-profits in this venture. I am also continuing my education. Thank you very much.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteYou can bet The Old Fart is taking a tax deduction. He has found a way to screw over a NP, make money from them and get a tax write off to boot. A real man of God.
I can also bet that when a NP earned a $25,000 check on one event, they were more than glad to pay that $499.
Not sure how this conversation transformed into the Passport 2 Giving Program FROM the Travel Agent Show recap, but you can now carry it on without my presence and input.
ReplyDeleteIt's Halloween and I'm taking my babies trick or treating AND to a Halloween party. And just taking this lovely Friday evening off. So, take care!
Listen up Yakki, what training did you take with YTB "to be able to work with NPs"? ROTFL!! What....you watched another YTB video??? I'll believe that a NP made that 25k (nice round number there lol) when you provide proof.
ReplyDeleteTo be "certified" to "sell" the Passport to Giving, you must be an RTA and you must have attended the CRTA class before it had anything to do with travel. You also needed to attend a Passport to Giving program (with a cost)that teaches you how to approach and sell the YTB program to these people.
ReplyDeleteI too would like to see the results. My bet is that like YTB, there are very few that make any money.
As for Shipsntrips--yes she is compensated for her efforts at a reduced rate. YTB has not reduced their rate. She also does not charge them $500 to participate. And finally, the charities she works with actually see a financial result of her efforts
Actually Yakki, yes I think YTB should do it for free if the Old Fart was truly interested in helping the NP. He can write any expenses (which are minimal really) off his taxes and isn't he and YTB worth millions? Should all the millionaires that donate time and money to various charities start charging a fee of $499.95 to that charity and then take back 30% of the money from the charity? That is exactly what YTB is doing.
ReplyDeleteHello folks,
ReplyDeleteI see I'm the topic of conversation once again. How lovely!
I also see the conversation switched somehow. I didn't come to debate. I just wanted to thank John. Thank you for the challenge and just thank you! He knows why.
Regarding the Passport 2 Giving program, John is right. There is specialized training that's required before anyone can present this program. It's very different than just approaching a prospect. It requires more professional skills. I'm also certified to present this program. It requires an 8 hour training and an annual refresher.
Anonymous (sounds like Eddie to me) mentioned if millionaires should charge and then take back when donating. I don't think so. They are providing those charities with pure simple donations. Passport 2 Giving is a FUNDRAISING PROGRAM. There is a difference. As for proof, I can probably get the one Non Profit I know who made $25,000 to speak with someone. I hope that would be proof enough. There is a presentation with them being presented the check.
I think it's an excellent program for non profits. They often have many challenges in raising funds. I know well about that since I am a part of a non profit. Why not raise funds using travel, which their supporters are already doing? Bake sales, silent auctions, car washes, etc bring minimal returns and are labor-intensive. Travel is a perfect fundraiser with no staff time. Good thing our non profits are more appreciative about the purpose and intent of this program than you are. It works!
Have a great evening everyone. Again, thank you very much John and I will remember!
Denyse-I am sure the P2G program does indeed work for a few NPs. But I am guessing that just like the majority of RTAs it does not work and there is very little return on the $500 investment.
ReplyDeleteI sit on the Board of a Volunteer Center and we are now struggling for funds and investigating charging other NPs for the services we provide (we are a match.com for the NPs in the area). We are talking a nominal fee of $100 or less per year and are finding a LOT of the non-profits simply don;t have it to spend. I refuse to believe that but that is what out ED is telling us.
So I am thinking that getting $500 on an unknown is very difficult.
But also like the RTAs that are failing, the NPs are also failing in part because they do nothing more than put the link on their sites. Yes I know to succeed you need to work, and unfortunately, that is not the impression YTB likes to leave--they prefer to say you earn money while you sleep and all you need to do is tell your friends and family (or members) and you will make tons of money.
The problem is Densyse, YTB is taking advantage of the non profits to increase their revenue and fatten their own wallets. I can't believe a good Christian woman such as yourself has been suckered into this scam. It is not right. And, to think you promote says that you have no morals and are only interested in fattening your own wallet. Shame on you.
ReplyDelete"The problem is Densyse, YTB is taking advantage of the non profits to increase their revenue and fatten their own wallets. I can't believe a good Christian woman such as yourself has been suckered into this scam. It is not right. And, to think you promote says that you have no morals and are only interested in fattening your own wallet. Shame on you."
ReplyDeleteSo Kit, what about the banker that sells the non-profit their mortgage? Is he immoral for making money off the non-profit even though he offered them a service they WANTED? The electric company? The people that mow their lawns? So if someone offers someone else a service that the one offering it makes a small percentage and the one buying actually makes more, then that is somehow immoral? Then my stock broker is a crook! I made more off my investments last year (well up until the last few months) and he made a little bit off them since he managed it, so that makes him less Christian?
"Taking advantage of the non-profits"? So are you saying that these people that decide that the P2G program are somehow not smart enough to make their own decisions as to what is valuable to them or not? Are you saying that little ole Denyse has something on them that they are not smart enough to figure out? Seems you are insulting the intelligence of non-profits just so you can be right about YTB.
Anon, the issue is that in those cases the NP is getting something in return. Very few NPs earn anything with YTB.
ReplyDeleteIf the banker took their money and then provided them no building or half the building they expected, then yes they are immoral.
Anonymous, not sure who you are, but thank you. Yep, shame on me. A Christian woman such as myself. Providing services to these poor non-profits that they actually WANT to use. I'm smart Kit, but not as smart as you make me - getting these Executive Directors to spend money they don't want to spend to make money they don't want to make. Wow. Not one of my NPs think its a scam, ONLY because they see how it works.
ReplyDeleteAnd John, the thing with this program is that the RTA must work for the non-profit. The NP has to do nothing except market it. I can't tell you about other programs, but I know I service my clients. Their travel programs are very busy and they are getting returns on them. In fact, all of them have made back that investment and have crossed into profits. They are very glad to be able to support their budgets with income they did not have prior to the program. PLUS they're having more fun than putting together an auction!
This is firemedic. Can't get my blogger account to register.
ReplyDelete"Anon, the issue is that in those cases the NP is getting something in return. Very few NPs earn anything with YTB."
Prove your case John. You are saying that "very few" earn anything. Prove that is the case. Even if you case was true, if sell someone a vehicle is it not up to them to drive that vehicle after you teach them how to drive it? If we offer them a vehicle on how to raise money, is it not up to them to drive the traffic to that vehicle? If they don't, whose responsible? I am sure there are some that don't and some that do. I can see how it would benefit me to make sure they are successful and therefore I would do whatever I could to help them drive that traffic to their websites and such.
There is nothing wrong going on here. It's only the fact that it's YTB that has them shouting foul play. No matter what YTB does, it's bad in their eyes.
Hi Firemedic. You're right. Its a shame that nothing that YTB does is right. Yes, they made some mistakes (they've admitted that) and more than likely will continue to make mistakes. If they didn't, they wouldn't be human. EVERYONE else makes mistakes. But everything we do is pulled apart to shreds. Is there nothing that will satisfy you all? Except to disappear?? And you don't want that either. Then who will you talk about. And I read in a forum it shouldn't be about YTB. Because if YTB were to disappear tomorrow, there will be others who will rise. Then your fight continues, ad nauseum.
ReplyDeleteI certainly understand the TTAs feelings about how this company came into the industry and things that have happened that went wrong. But my goodness, there are strides to correct mistakes and improve performance. That should account for something.
I'll just stay in my little corner, get my travel education, book my travel, service my clients and shut my mouth. Geeesssshhhh
Firemedic---stop with the same old lines that Coach tells you to say. If you sell them a car that has a 90% chance of not being able to start, it is a scam.
ReplyDeleteYou want proof...here you go for the umpteenth time.
My hypothesis "Very few earn anything"
Just like in math class I will show my work:
Commissions paid by YTB to the RTAs $13,426,540. Total number of RTAs 131,065. Per the 10K filed with the SEC on pages 12 and 13.
$13,426,540 divided by 131,065 = $102.44 commission earned by the average RTA.
Now most of the YTBers on here (including yourself) claim that they are earning a "lot" more than that. Of course it is unsubstantiated.
But let's say that 51% (the definition of NOT most) or 68,843 RTAs earned $2500 for the year..oops that means that YTB would have had to pay $167M to the field. Let's try again. Let's say those same RTAs earned $500 a year (maybe that is your definition of "a lot")...oops, that means YTB would have had to pay $34M out to the field. $250 starts to come close, but that only covers half of the NP initial investment.
But realistically, there are a few (my guess is less than 5%) that earn any money with YTB. Kim Sorensen even said 80% earn nothing when he spoke with Travel Weekly (I can find a link if you like) last time I checked 80% was the "majority". Is it different in your book?
IMHO--the issue is that YTB has done so little that is on the up and up. They built their business around the "mistakes" and only correct when caught and according to their president have no intention of changing the way they work.
ReplyDeletePersonally, I think the AG will be very successful and will either shut down YTB or force it to truly legitimize it's business.
When I say shut down, I know he has power in CA only. But when a company has $600K in the bank and a judgment for $25M with RTAs and Reps fleeing like rats from a ship, the company has very few alternatives but to cease operations. If that happens, it is very likely that the others (as we currently know them) will modify their own business plans to not succumb to the same fate.
If YTB ever legitimizes itself, then it is a win-win for everyone. But I am not holding my breath on that--again your opwn president said there were no changes to the MLM structure.
And do not forget that the courts are funny animals and there are two separate class action suits pending against YTB and at least 100 of the Reps in excess of $100 million each!
Just a suggestion. You may want to see what is involved in switching your bookings away from YTB should it become necessary. Ever been on a canceled flight and had to fight with 150 other people? Imagine fighting with 100,000 people! And hopefully, YTB is not using your client's money as a float and is remitting the deposits and payments on time. I know they are processing the transactions and not the vendors.
The problem with that John is that you are spreading out what's earned between ALL RTAs. And we know the truth is that many DO NOT earn with the company. Does that mean the company is bad or does not work? Nope. It means those PEOPLE did not work. The few who did earn money earn much MUCH more than $102.44.
ReplyDeleteBack to my corner......lol
John said...
ReplyDeleteIf YTB ever legitimizes itself, then it is a win-win for everyone. But I am not holding my breath on that--again your opwn president said there were no changes to the MLM structure.
Are you saying this company cannot be legitimate with an MLM structure?? That's ludicrous. I've already checked out my options. There are none that satisfy me.
IMHO--I am saying that and Arnie Weissmann said it as well in an editorial.
ReplyDeleteI understand the concept of not working and not getting a return. Let me rephrase it. You do concede that most do not make money or recover their investment. The reports support that. So here is the question:
What is it about YTB that attracts so many losers?
"Kim Sorensen even said 80% earn nothing when he spoke with Travel Weekly (I can find a link if you like) last time I checked 80% was the "majority". Is it different in your book?"
ReplyDelete"What is it about YTB that attracts so many losers?"
John, are you saying that the "majority" of people that start with all the other host agencies don't quit and decide to do nothing? So when my friend that sells 24 hour fitness memberships that over 85% never come back after a month, it is 24-hour fitness' fault?
I refer you back to this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FclI8hGQgb4&feature=related
I know many TAs have joined other agencies, done little to nothing, quit, joined other agencies, etc. It's not just YTB.
ReplyDeleteWhy does YTB attract so many losers? I really wouldn't call them losers. Maybe they've made no money with YTB. But many are successful in their own right. You've seen many of the presentations. Many people see a dream. They are told in those presentations that there has to be some work. But when they really look at how much work, they quit on themselves. It's too much to make this work when you have a demanding full time job. People are more successful if they either make a commitment to do this well part time, or focus their full time energy to make this work. That's what I did.
This is not for everyone. Thus the income disclosure.
Also, if a person cannot make that commitment to work for themselves, you can't blame YTB. That person quit on themselves, their families and their dreams.
ReplyDeleteBut I'm sure you don't really care who makes money or not. You just want to denigrade YTB, by any means necessary. Have at it John, Kit, Kate, Susan, Eddie, Steve, and others. I'm happy with my decision. ;-)
ReplyDeleteI have no idea of how many people join a host and earn nothing. It would be an interesting statistic.
ReplyDeleteI suspect it is far less than YTB because legitimate hosts are interested in selling travel not recruiting, and the end result is not a false promise of riches.
The income (or lack of) disclosure is required because of the structure of the company--MLM. No other legitimate travel company is required to do this. I am thinking franchises might have some sort of disclosure, but no legitimate travel company is required to disclose that info to their ICs--it is a regulation BECAUSE of the high failure rate.
ReplyDeleteIMHO--I am sure there are many with YTB that are happy with the income they make. There are many that want to sell travel and no one denies that. And if it is working for you, that is great.
But all I mean is that when you signed up all YTB talked about was a "Plan B" from your Just Over Broke. Well, to be honest, I think a "Plan C" might be in order, because what happens if all of a sudden YTB goes away?
Deyse, you need to take a good hard look at what just happened with Joystar. Because they lost their Florida and California SOT, CLIA had to cancel them. If the state of CA finds that YTB is in violation and cancels their SOT, why would the rules be any different for YTB?
ReplyDeleteNo SOT+no CLIA=no ytb. And if you read anything online at all, you'll see that the big wigs at Joystar kept saying that everything was fine! It was just their jealous competition and the press making a big deal out of nothing. Then the commission checks were missing. And now no one is getting paid or answering the phones, and the guy who owns it jumped on a cruise ship and sailed off into the sunset.
Regardless of what John, Lisa, or anyone else has to say about YTB, the question on the table remains the same. If you are serious about a career in travel, then why hook up with the company with the worst reputation and a low commission split? Unless your goal is to be below average it makes no sense.
A column I wrote a few weeks ago addresses this. Just some signs for everyone to watch for with ANY host:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.travelresearchonline.com/blog/index.php/2008/10/whats-your-plan-b-c-and-d/
"A column I wrote a few weeks ago addresses this. Just some signs for everyone to watch for with ANY host:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.travelresearchonline.com/blog/index.php/2008/10/whats-your-plan-b-c-and-d/"
It's funny to watch how many of your articles have some kind of jab at YTB.
Anon--where was the jab at YTB? If you had any idea what was going on in the industry you would know what the columns was all about.
ReplyDeleteSorry to disappoint you, but everything does not revolve around YTB!
John said...
ReplyDeleteI have no idea of how many people join a host and earn nothing. It would be an interesting statistic.
I suspect it is far less than YTB because legitimate hosts are interested in selling travel not recruiting, and the end result is not a false promise of riches.
Why don't you gather those stats John. It WOULD be interesting.
I'm not sure it would be much less. YTB is interested in selling travel as well. I know everyone who starts with a host does not begin on a full time basis. So, let's see how many begin with any host, have a full time, and still earn a good salary. I'll be waiting for that.
John said...
ReplyDeleteBut all I mean is that when you signed up all YTB talked about was a "Plan B" from your Just Over Broke. Well, to be honest, I think a "Plan C" might be in order, because what happens if all of a sudden YTB goes away?
I'm sure you could locate that income info John.
When I signed that was not all I heard. Actually, my cousin who lives in MD presented this to me. He had no idea about the recruiting portion. He talked about travel because he knew I was interested in travel.
I think we ALL need a Plan B & C, especially those of us in Corporate America.
kholmes said...
ReplyDeleteDeyse, you need to take a good hard look at what just happened with Joystar. Because they lost their Florida and California SOT, CLIA had to cancel them. If the state of CA finds that YTB is in violation and cancels their SOT, why would the rules be any different for YTB?
I've also looked at what's happened with AIG, Wachovia and other corporate jobs. I don't put all of my eggs in one basket. I believe in multiple streams of income.
I keep telling you all, I'll be fine. Don't worry about me. I know enough to keep myself and my family afloat. The training that I am getting will allow me to go anywhere. That's what its all about - the foundation.
My goal is not to be below average or sub-standard. I AM HAPPY NOW. If things were to change, I have things set so that all I have to do is walk into another host - no problem.
But remember, it can also happen to ANY host. My qualifications will support me in my quest to be a seller of travel.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteIt's funny to watch how many of your articles have some kind of jab at YTB.
Its ALL about YTB. I would love to see some information on Joystar, TraVerus, World Ventures, GRN, Coastal, etc. How about it?
Maybe that's a good thing also. We focus on YTB because the others just aren't large enough or important enough.
"Its ALL about YTB. I would love to see some information on Joystar, TraVerus, World Ventures, GRN, Coastal, etc. How about it?
ReplyDeleteMaybe that's a good thing also. We focus on YTB because the others just aren't large enough or important enough."
Somewhat, but not entirely true. We focus on YTB because they are large (and in not a good way). Important? Yes, just because they are large. But most importantly, they are PUBLIC. Their info is out there for everyone to look at and judge. Don't think that Joystar isn't being judged.
We would ALL like to see information on the other travel MLMs (I don't think it's for lack of trying).
Ann, CTC said...
ReplyDeleteSomewhat, but not entirely true. We focus on YTB because they are large (and in not a good way). Important? Yes, just because they are large. But most importantly, they are PUBLIC. Their info is out there for everyone to look at and judge. Don't think that Joystar isn't being judged.
We would ALL like to see information on the other travel MLMs (I don't think it's for lack of trying).
That's great Ann. When companies are not public it makes me think they have something to hide. Joystar may be judged but they are certainly NOT a daily topic here, WITHOUT mentioning YTB. Do you mean you, or others, have been trying to get information on the other travel MLMs? Funny, its all around. Its just not being discussed HERE at least.
"When companies are not public it makes me think they have something to hide."
ReplyDeleteCompanies go public for only one reason - to get money via selling stock.
It has nothing to do with having something to hide.
Please re-read Johns article without your "YTB chip on the shoulder" blinders on - the article was actually written in response to the Joystar meltdown.
ReplyDeleteOf course if you had been reading real industry news sources you would be able to make that connection.
Denyse, what you seem to be continually missing is that the focus has been on YTB for many reasons. First off they are the largest, the oldest and most in your face of all the Travel MLM's put together. This does not neccessarily mean that they are the most successful. So I do not want to hear from YTBers "Oh yeah we are the biggest and the best." That is NOT what I am saying. YTB has been the most successful AT recruiting and soliciting.
ReplyDeleteThe vast majority of all the other Travel MLM's came long after YTB began and to some extent copied some of YTB's practices. The owners of those MLM's certainly looked at YTB and decided hey, if YTB can get fees and commissions from this many people (regardlesss of what those people make actually earn) we want a piece of the MLM travel pie and we are going to make a program. Many of the issues that plague YTB also are the same for these other companies. They are however not as large and in your face as YTB and because they arenot so piblic, it is difficult to see the truth behind the owners, their earning etc. You do not see their SEC filings which tell us what has been discussed here ad nauseum here and on other forums, so I am not going to repeat all of them in this post.
It became quite clear that YTB is an MLM/Pyramid scheme. The selling of travel has always, alway been secondary to The Old Fart and simply the hook to bring in people to his scam. The internet was and is flooded with their mis-leading videos, blogs, websites and solicitations and ads. This is not done nearly to the degree as it is with other Travel MLMs. You do not see all the truth and negative press that plagues YTB either.
You have not seen IATAN pulling other Travel MLM's status away. The problem is that YTBers do not see that as any big deal, when in truth it is tremendous. If you understood what IATAN is, and what they mean, it certainly would be a big deal to them. Tomer does not care. You have not seen Suppliers and Vendors leaving other Travel MLMs as they have with YTB. ASTA has had to come out and take a stance with YTB and what they now consider "card mills". Why? Because of YTB and it's blatant abuse. You do not see other AG's suing and investigating other Travel MLMs. You do not see huge class action suits filed against the other companies. You do not see the insider trading, dumping of stocks, the deals with Meridian Bank, who the Board of Diectors are with other travel MLMs now do you? You do not see them buying mansions and Leer jets do you? You do not see Consumer and and various other Watchdog organizations comming out against the other Travel MLM's do you? Rod Cook himself, who is very pro MLM, has published many negative and TRUTHFUL articles about YTB to warn people to stay away from them and defines them as a PYRAMID! Other legit MLM's shun YTB.
NONE of YTB's founders or Board Members or Directors even have any experience whatsoever in the Travel Industry. But, many of them, in fact have plenty of experience in MLMs and Pyramid schemes Including Tomer. You see, there are even dozens and dozens of more other reasons (not listed in this post) why YTB is the focus of the legit Travel Industry. There are dozens and dozens of deatils.
It is like a puzzle. Pieces have been thrown out in the media, by governing agencies, by the SEC filings, the background of Tomer and the other entities that comprise YTB, all of their greedy and immorral decisions, etc. And when you put these pieces together the entire picture begins to emerge and the picture and profile of YTB is very, very ugly.
This is what all YTBers deny. It does not matter how much fact, truth, data, reality and research is put forward, you will always be in denial. There is always some lame excuse for everything and deflection. There is never or very, very rarely validation and admittance of any of the wrong doings of YTB. Even when there is by YTBers, it is immediately followed up with some drivel to delute the issue. It's always "But I am not doing that and I am for real and honest", etc.
To be associated with any company that has stolen millions and millions of dollars form their members under false promises, that has conducted their "business" practices in such an unethical way, DOES make you culpable, because you chose to align yourself with such a business and support them, wheter you "see" this or not! When you lie down with dogs, you get fleas.
"Please re-read Johns article without your "YTB chip on the shoulder" blinders on - the article was actually written in response to the Joystar meltdown."
ReplyDeleteI am not just talking about this article today. Read most of his articles lately and you will usually find some little jab at YTB. Sometimes its more blatant but it's mostly YTB and non of the other. Very fixated on YTB.
Take for instance this one:http://www.travelresearchonline.com/blog/index.php/2008/11/first-impressions-are-important-dont-blow-it/
Talking about business cards and had to use YTB's websites. Funny.
Little Bird said...
ReplyDeletePlease re-read Johns article without your "YTB chip on the shoulder" blinders on - the article was actually written in response to the Joystar meltdown.
Of course if you had been reading real industry news sources you would be able to make that connection.
AND had you read my post closely, you would have seen that I said that YTB is STILL a daily topic. No matter what else is discussed, YTB comes up. I said WITHOUT mentioning YTB.
There is NO chip on my shoulder AND I have no blinders on. One can't discuss subjects without being accused of having blinders on???
"To be associated with any company that has stolen millions and millions of dollars form their members under false promises, that has conducted their "business" practices in such an unethical way, DOES make you culpable, because you chose to align yourself with such a business and support them, wheter you "see" this or not! When you lie down with dogs, you get fleas."
ReplyDeleteWhat a crock. Name one PROMISE you can find in any of the company literature.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteDenyse, what you seem to be continually missing is that the focus has been on YTB for many reasons. First off they are the largest, the oldest and most in your face of all the Travel MLM's put together. This does not neccessarily mean that they are the most successful. So I do not want to hear from YTBers "Oh yeah we are the biggest and the best." That is NOT what I am saying. YTB has been the most successful AT recruiting and soliciting.
Contrary to your belief, I am missing nothing. Everything you have said, which as you said has been stated ad nauseum, is public knowledge. I KNOW all of it. And there's probably no reason to even respond.
But other travel MLMs have sort of been exempt from many of the challenges because they have watched what has gone on and taken their companies in different directions. And please don't say that's untrue. I had someone (an executive) tell me that who's with one of the other companies. But there's no true valor in imitating and changing directions to avoid the start-up challenges.
At the end of the day, some may have diverted their attention and services away from YTB, but it has in no way prevented me from selling travel. I am NOT saying those things are unimportant, but not having them has still not affected my sale of travel.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDelete"To be associated with any company that has stolen millions and millions of dollars form their members under false promises, that has conducted their "business" practices in such an unethical way, DOES make you culpable, because you chose to align yourself with such a business and support them, wheter you "see" this or not! When you lie down with dogs, you get fleas."
There IS no promise in any of the literature. Do some individuals make promises?? Of course. But what YOU'RE missing is that any experience shared may be unique to those individuals sharing them and should not be taken as assurances of success for others. The company ALSO is not responsible for what comes out of others' mouths.
Do you think the people feel culpable in the company who received bail out money then took their employees on an expensive trip?? Why should they? They are employees and had no involvement in that decision. But at the end of the day, its still income for them and their families. Don't miss THAT part.
But I know, there are other options for me. ONCE AGAIN, I'm happy. IF and WHEN that changes, I'll be able to change my focus. I have no fleas just as those employees have no fleas. Thanks!
I want to add that the pervasive attitude of YTB and it's members, is "we don't care". We don't care that we have sullied and tarnished and very much degraded the legit Travel Industry by their presence, which is the profession and career of thousands and thousands of legit TA's and legit B&M's who have spent their entire lives, being educated, establishing themselves, training, gathering experience, providing all the extras and true customer service to their clients both Corporate and Cunsumer, earning all their certifications in a meeaningful and honest fashion, being proud of what they do and conducting themselves as professionals. When you read Doug's blog where he just the other day stated that "YTB told ASTA to pound sand", (when it fact and truth it was the other way around) and YTB permits this and obviously in doing so, condones this behavior, (and they do it with other members blogs and ads as well) are you still wondering WHY YTB is the focus of the Legit TA's???
ReplyDeleteYTBers seem to have no concept of what the professional of travel means to a legit entity. It is their passion. It is beyond a source of income. It is pride and accomplishment and years of very hard work. TA's take their role very seriously. It's not a joke to them. It's not a part-time job or a hobby or a way to make a few extra bucks. It is a huge part of their lives. It is how they are defined as a professional.
The sad part is that the laws in this counrty regarding MLMs and Pyramids are so weak. The agencies that protect TA's are not the same as say the AMA, the Bar association etc. If you suddenly saw the members of the MLM Pre Paid Legal calling themselves attorneys, there would be huge consequences and it would simply not be allowed. If you saw someone with a high school diploma who took a few tests and watched a few videos proclaiming themselves to be a Physician, how long do you suppose that would be allowed to continue? You cannot then grasp the outrage of the TA's about YTB's insulting, denegrating behavior. You have no concept of why they are considered a pariah.
YTBers always claim it is because of competition. Believe me, YTB is not a flea on a dog's ass in any sales to a legit TA nor are they in fact any competition at all, no matter how you rail about that. THAT is not the issue at all. YTB is simply put, a con, a scam and a pure disgrace to any legit profession. They just happened to have chosen Travel.
Being the Christian that you claim to be, it is amazing to me that you cannot grasp this concept at all. If a person went to say Mary Mount college to earn their degree, perhaps even got a Master's or a PH.D. in their chosen relgion, studied abroad, apprenticed, any myriad of actualities that take place in their chosen profession, they start out building a congregation, have psychology courses behind them, gather experience and have thrown their heart and soul into truly ministering to their flock, caring and loving those members, and helping the needy etc., and then they see some idiot getting a piece of paper by mail order that he simply purchased and now that paper proclaims him to be a Minister and he can start a NP church and preach and take money from the members, provide them with shoddy, half assed service and is in it for the money only, How the hell would you feel? Does that comparison get through to you? Because of yet, nothing else has really. You still do not "get it".
Again Denyse, you are paddling up the river of denial when you point out the fault of companies that took their employees on trips while standing before Congress begging for money. YES, I do feel they should be culpable and punished. Just as I feel that YTB and Lloyd Tomer should be punished for what he has done.
ReplyDeleteDo you think that because other entities rip off consumers that's it then okay for YTB to be doing the same? What the hell is the point of you even bringing that up? We are not discussing Wallstreet and banking and mortage companies are we? We are discussing YTB!
The fact that you claim and have admitted to know the truth about YTB and yet you condone ALL of it and still choose to stay with YTB, line their pockets and support them tells me everything I need to know about your lack of ethics, scruples, character, decency and morals. Deny that all you want to. You are a liar. The truth is there for everyone to see about you. It's sad and it's shameful. You can proclaim all you want to, about what a wonderful person you are, while aligning yourself with crooks and conmen. You are not. If you are an example of a true Christian, I would rather spend time with a Buddhist then. An atheist has more morals then you do.
Please excuse my few typos in my posts and lousy proof reading. I can spell, but I am the lousiest typist on the planet. (two fingers, an elbow and a toe) lol
ReplyDeleteI was making a point that separating yourself from the pack and being unique is a good thing. Yes, I used the RTA websites as a poor example. They all look alike. Can you show me a better example of a travel company that has websites and they ALL look identical?
ReplyDeleteDenyse again you are in DENIAL. When YTB allows, condones and supports Directors, Reps and RTA's to solicit in person, on the internet, in presentations,in blogs, in ads, by lieing and making false promises that is the issue. I do not care what the hell YTB's literature says. I care about what YTB is doing, has done, is allowing and has allowed. And believe me the proof is there a thousand times over. I have seen the b.s. videos of Tomer as well, pretending to be a Man of God and care about his members. I have seen his own recruiting videos. When you see YTB Directors showing off everything from mansions, to Humvees, expensive sports cars, boats and even Rick Rickects plane in their recruiting videos, I guess that tells you nothing....because you CHOOSE to be blind to it all. What you choose to do in your life, has nothing to do with the TRUTH about YTB. So do not come here, playing Miss Christian and Miss nice person to me. I see though that phony facade and it stinks. It reaks actually.
ReplyDelete"When you read Doug's blog where he just the other day stated that "YTB told ASTA to pound sand"
ReplyDeleteYou read that wrong Anon. It was the FTC that told ASTA to "pound sand". ASTA went to the FTC trying to drum up something.
"The sad part is that the laws in this counrty regarding MLMs and Pyramids are so weak."
That's not true at all. The laws have been pretty tough all along but most companies fail in the first couple of years so the FTC or other entities don't have to do much about it.
Anon, it's obvious that you are very passionate about travel and you are a true pro. It also seems that you have a very one sided history of what you think YTB is all about. It seems obvious you don't understand nor appreciate the MLM business model but that is by your choice. You have done things your way for a long time it seems. But what I truly believe is that you, like many of the TA's, have built this thing up to be a lot more than it really is. That is why I have encouraged to you to take the time and sit down with the principals of the company. I believe, if you open your mind a bit, you will find out it's not as bad as you think. If YTB is not a "flea on a dog's ass" then how in the world can you blame it for decline in the travel industry or have caused this huge tarnishment? You seem to have a lot to offer and I think you and those like you could do a WHOLE LOT MORE good if you took the time to stop being so resistant and find a win/win scenario. But you will only seem to have it your way and YTB will only continue on despite your passions. I have been around YTB for a little while now and what I hear from you and what I hear from them are two different things. I HAVE heard the owners humble themselves and say they messed up but that doesn't mean they should just tuck tail and walk away. They are not like that. They DO care about the travel industry and you have actually been helping YTB a lot more than you think.
FM, as usual you assume much and put out more false statements, which realy are just heresay. I am a very happy person. You do not know a damn thing about me as a person. What you claim to "hear" from YTB is crap frankly and quite meaningless. The proof is in the pudding. The proof is in what YTB has done and continues to do. The proof is in the SEC filings. It is not in some unproven nonsense that you believe or state on here.
ReplyDeleteAnd yes the laws are much weaker than they are regarding Pyramids and MLMs in this country than they are in other nations and are not nearly as strong and specific as they could and need to be. Ask any consumer that has been ripped off about that.
Again, whether you believe that or not is YOUR opinion. I am stating the facts.
YTB was started by Tomer, a con artist, who tried to pull off other such scams in the past, as a way to build a Pyramid and bilk people and make millions. It was not started out as some legit entitiy to bring something of value to the travel industry or enhance it in any way, nor to bring some great service the comsuner in the SEVEN years that it has been operating. It was done to line his pockets and those of the minions at the top of the Pyramid.That is proven in their entire hsitory. He has aligned himself and brought into the company well know people with huge downlines and the ability to recruit who have been in other MLM/Pyramids. The Directors get to where they are in YTB not by selling travel, but by recruiting.
There is no one sided story to YTB. There is simply the truth, the research, the figures, and the facts. And if the truth and the facts reveal the one sideness of YTB, then that should tell you something. Because it is a one-sided company. It is not by accident, that when caught with his pants down, that suddenly he is trying to make YTB look more legit. If it had not been for all the lawsuits do you really believe that anything would have changed with YTB?? Funny, in seven years, it did notchange until the lawsuits, the terrible press and the investigations. How blind can you be?
Again, you can deny or shuffle off what YTB represents to the legit Travel Industry all you care to as "no big deal". It it obvious no big deal to you and your ilk. It is a very big deal to the Travel Industry and to all legit TAs and legit sellers of travel around the world.
And if you think that the AG in Ca will not prevail and that other AG's (Ill. already has) will not follow, and are not already looking into YTB, then you are very foolish indeed.
YTB has tried to brush the class action lawsuits and the AG's lawsuit all under the table, like it is some drivel. Let's see how that works for them once they go to trial. The AG and YTB's attorneys will appear before a Superior Court Judge in January of 09, to set the trial date.
Don't start that bullshit with me like you have with many others about sitting down with Tomer and discussing this. That is just nonsense. And what is this again lieing statement, that you have encouraged me to do so when I have never posted to you til just recently (I have only posted on this blog for two days lol)and you have no clue who I am and we have never had such a dialogue. Do you just make this b.s. up as you go along and state it as fact? I do not need to consult an astronomer to ask him what the Sun is and does it exist and how does it function. I wouldn't waste my time with that immoral, lieing, conman of snake ever. I do not associate with such people and never have. Nor to I care to have tea with them or even spend two seconds in their presence. In fact, it would be very difficult for me to restrain myself around him. YTB reads this blog as do it's members. Free feel to share my thoughts on that bastard with him anytime you want to.
When did I ever state that YTB is responsible for "the decline in the travel industry". You are constantly putting words that they never uttered into other posters mouths on here. I am not falling for that deflecting, lieing tactic either. Read my posts. I have stated quite clearly what the issues are with YTB. That fact that you cannot accept or understand them is your problem. Not mine.
Here is what Doug stated on his non professional, lame blog:"Some are still holding on to hopes that they will. Of course these are the same people who are looking for the FTC to come around, even after the ASTA was told to go pound sand back in 2005." I did mis-read it. I can admit, like a man, when I am incorrect. It would be interesting to ever see that comming from you FM. I still believe, that brushing off what ASTA has tried and is trying to do in such a fashion is typical of YTBers. But then YTBers do not regard ANY legit, professional agency associated with the Travel Industry as anything of meaning or value do they? P.S. let us know when Kim figures out how many members are actualy current in YTB. lol
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said...
ReplyDeleteTOO much to quote! But these are a few points I'll make.
First, I Do understand how TAs feel about this whole concept. I, as you, am being educated, establishing myself, training, gathering experience, providing all the extras and true customer service to my clients, earning all the certifications available in a meaningful and honest fashion, being proud of what I do and conducting myself as a professional. So, I don't see the difference there. So maybe I am in denial. How does that hurt you?? It doesn't. As perturbed as you sound, YTB maybe be hurting you - but not I.
You tell me not to bring other professions into this conversation, yet you bring my Christianity into it. That's where the line should be drawn. There are many instances where a person buys a degree online, begins a congregation and starts to minister. I can tell you that in MANY of those instances, the impact of that person on people's lives is no less than the person who graduated from Harvard. In fact, they may have more impact because they haven't been ruined by the ideologies of "education". THIS choice of professions has NOTHING to do with my Christianity.
I DO know the what the concept of professional travel means. I'm not here for JUST the income either. It's a profession to me, just as Health Administration was a profession to me.
You mentioned Pre-Paid (but don't bring other professions in). They may not be lawyers but they still sell lawyers and judicial products. I am NOT a Travel Agent YET, but I can sell travel and travel-related products. I am a Referring Travel Agent (Travel Consultant) and am working my way toward becoming a full Travel Agent. You won't be able to deny that if I have taken and successfully passed what I need to become that.
I also was not saying that because other entities rip off people we should. I was bringing that comparison because you seem to feel that I should be culpable for others' actions. I am culpable for my own actions. And I don't see YTB ripping anyone off. Everyone should be at least 18 and capable of making their own decisions.
I don't agree with everything that YTB does, however, that's not to say its wrong or unlawful. I just don't agree. I wouldn't market this company by showing my homes, boat or cars. But its not wrong to do so. You're upset because it draws many people to this industry who should not be here. I agree with that also, but its not my fault. And its not intent to PLAY Miss Anything to you. I've said before, your OPINIONS (and that's all they are) do not matter to me. Pay my bills and I will do what you say.
And who knows that you've only posted for two days - hiding behind anonymous?? Those things HAVE been said here quite a few times. Firemedic disclosed his anonymous name with a reason. Care to share?
Then why have you brought your Christianity into your posts on several ocassions?
ReplyDeleteLMAO I am P.I.O.T.B. who posts on the Scam forum in the YTB thread. I once signed up for this blog only because John had injured his knee sometime back, and I had read that he had, because I have read his blog daily for many months and he does post on Scam, in the YTB thread as well, so I knew him first from there. I made one post only to wish him well. That was it. I think I used the name NightOwl or Night Owl with a space. You could go back and find it I am sure. That is the only time prior to the last two days that I have posted here. I have actually forgotten what the password was/is or even what email account that I used to even set up an account elsewhere to be able to post on here, since my wife and I have several email accounts in various places for various uses. I did it on the fly back then and have not posted since til yesterday. That is the truth. I have never lied on the Scam forum and I am not lieing here. I don't do that.I have no reason to. I have been too lazy I guess, to simply take the time to start a new account on Aim, or Google or Word Press or any of the entities that are required you to be registered on in order to post with a screen name on this blog. I have never in my life had accounts at any of those entities and simply do not use them frankly. I would have no where to use them and don't need them. I think I registered on Google ( I am not really sure- I honestly do not remember) to wish John well, but I have actualy searched in my desk to see what the exact screen name was and the password and I cannot find it.
None of that however, in any way changes or takes away from what I have said here. FM has a screen name. So what? Do I believe for one second the info that he spews about himself or YTB. No. I do not. It makes him legitimate in no way as far as I am concerned. Now do you feel better that I "shared"??? lol Everything that I have posted in regards to your position with YTB. and about YTB itself, still stands as far I am concerned. I saw no reason to put P.I.O.T.B. in my posts because only a few of the people here post on Scam and know of me. Most don't from here. I know Lisa and John do and Ains did in the past only briefly a few times, but those are the only members I know of that I can think of who do, unless they are using different names on there. I am not a mind reader afterall. People would be going who the hell is P.I.O.T.B. even if I listed that in my posts. lol So I never thought to bother to include that in my posts. Do you feel better now? Does this make some huge difference to you? What was I saying about deflection from YTBers earlier??? Oh, and I know NM (No Moron Here) who registered only recently from the Scam forum and I believe he made only two posts on here within the last few days. I hope you have that all over warm fuzzy feeling now.
None of that really matters. Now you know how someone else feels when they say "Anonymous" is hiding - why not come out.
ReplyDeleteThanks for sharing though. Just as you have no reason to lie here or anywhere else, neither do I. And I wouldn't presume to call you a liar or anything else that I don't know to be true.
I'm warm and fuzzy!
"It was the FTC that told ASTA to "pound sand". ASTA went to the FTC trying to drum up something."
ReplyDeleteWhere is your PROOF? There isn't any is there? That's just crap. Just like YTB dumped Royal Caribbean and Lisa Bauer was demoted. AND, Royal Caribbean begged YTB to take them back. You are being spoon fed propaganda and half truths. Your like a bunch of dumb sheep.
Just like Kit just said "we're like a bunch of dumb sheep" and MANY other names she's called people. I could call her a bunch of names also, but I don't know them to be true so I wouldn't do that. EXCEPT that she doesn't always keep track of conversations well and then says things already said or completely wrong.
ReplyDelete"I am NOT a Travel Agent YET, but I can sell travel and travel-related products. I am a Referring Travel Agent (Travel Consultant) and am working my way toward becoming a full Travel Agent. You won't be able to deny that if I have taken and successfully passed what I need to become that."
ReplyDeleteWell Denyse when you pass your CTA and CTC, the only real legit travel agent training let us know. Until then shut the heck up.
As to the mail order minister comment LMAO at that one. If I found out my minister had a mail order diploma I would find a different Church. Not some holy roller Church with a minister who holds a card mill diploma. ROTFLMAO.
And we'll never get an apology for ANYTHING, especially for calling someone names. I've only responded to my Christianity when someone has brought it up. I don't go around discussing that in my profession. But that's ONE of the ways you can tell a true Christian, contrary to what you've said. I'll NEVER call names no matter what anyone calls me.
ReplyDeleteKit said...
ReplyDeleteWell Denyse when you pass your CTA and CTC, the only real legit travel agent training let us know. Until then shut the heck up.
So you don't consider an ACC a real legit travel agent training??
Oh forgot - that deals with cruises. Many of you don't do cruises OR deal with CLIA.
ReplyDelete"Just like Kit just said "we're like a bunch of dumb sheep" and MANY other names she's called people. I could call her a bunch of names also, but I don't know them to be true so I wouldn't do that. EXCEPT that she doesn't always keep track of conversations well and then says things already said or completely wrong."
ReplyDeleteHate to burst your bubble sweetheart but I ain't no she. Talk about not keeping track of conversations, that's you baby. As to warm and fuzzy. Yea, warm, fuzzy and a big hypocrite too.
"Oh forgot - that deals with cruises. Many of you don't do cruises OR deal with CLIA."
ReplyDeleteHell, CLIA would give my cat an ACC. It means nothing. CLIA hands out cards like I passed out Halloween candy last night. To anyone who wants one.
You couldn't pass the CTA or CTC. Until you do knock off the watch out when I get the training crap....
Get a new name!!! LOL
ReplyDeleteAgain, YOU DO NOT KNOW ME.
Kit said...
ReplyDeleteYou couldn't pass the CTA or CTC. Until you do knock off the watch out when I get the training crap....
AGAIN, being very nasty and not knowing what you're talking about. I can't pass a CTA or CTC, but I've been able to successfully pass a Bachelor's, two Master's, a Health Law Certification and plenty of certificates. Right. Have you???
a true Christian, contrary to what you've said.
ReplyDeleteYea Denyse you are a TRUE Christian involved and defending a company that SCAMS people.
Christians LIVE their beliefs through who they ASSOCIATE with and that includes the companies they get involved with.
You have to walk the talk honey.
Wow, you'd be something IF you really knew me. I see no response to the above question. This is enough.
ReplyDelete"AGAIN, being very nasty and not knowing what you're talking about. I can't pass a CTA or CTC, but I've been able to successfully pass a Bachelor's, two Master's, a Health Law Certification and plenty of certificates. Right. Have you???"
ReplyDeleteI am not telling you anything. Anyway, big damn deal. You have degrees doesn't mean crap. And, you have 0 common sense. You have been taken in by the MLM Crap and the scam artist. You want to sell travel, find a legitimate host. The only reason why you won't is because it's NOT about selling travel at all. IT'S ABOUT THE DOWN LINE! NOT THE TRAVEL! YOU DO NOT WANT TO GIVE UP THE DOWN LINE $$$$. You are a greedy, hypocritical person. That is who you are.
And, I don't have to change my name to suit your pathetic ass.
"Wow, you'd be something IF you really knew me. I see no response to the above question. This is enough."
ReplyDeleteI do know you honey and the others like you. You don't want the recruiting $$$ to dry up. It's a cash cow so you can go have more glamour shots taken and all the other trappings of the good life. You don't care about screwing up an industry at all. It's all about you. And, then you hide it behind your Christianity. You are a hypocrite honey. I know your kind to well.
Sorry - too many typos :)
ReplyDeleteI've been following these discussions for awhile - let me see if I can try to get you to understand where we are coming from.
Denyse - your husband is a minister, right?
How would you feel if all of a sudden a mail order outfit started churning out 100's of "ministers" in your neck of the woods by talking about all the tax benefits to be had, as well as the front of the line pass to heaven! (yes that's a joke but analogous to the 'travel like a TA' hype).
Everywhere you turn there are recruitment meetings, YouTube advertisements and people calling themselves ministers.
Your congregation starts to get caught up in the hype. YOU know that these people are not true ministers. YOU know they are primarily after building a congregation and that it's more about the Sunday collection than saving souls.
Would you not be concerned that the members of your flock were being misled?
Would you not rally against the company creating these 100's and 1000's of psuedo ministers? Even if they gave them a cute little name - the destinction of which is indecipherable to your congregation?
Now maybe out of that 100 - you run across 1 or 2 that were totally serious about being a minister and doing good in the world. Should that give that bogus company a pass? Would you then say it was ok for them to continue granting anyone and everyone a ministers certificate simply because a couple of people joined them in a misguided attempt to truly enter the profession?
Boliver, you are way behind times here. Everything you brought up is OLD conversation. Here is what we know: you don't know YTB like you think you do.
ReplyDeleteP.I.O.T.B. here. Boliver that was an excellent post and more detailed than my analogy. Very good indeed. I think it's hysterical for the above YTBer to claim that "we don't know YTB, like we think we do." After almost a year of research, media articles, the SEC filings, the posts from YTBers who have left YTB and those who have stayed and a huge plethora of info to be found on YTB from many, many sources, the fact that many who have posted here and on the SCAM site have attended different types of YTB events and given first hand testimonials, studies and investigations by consumer groups, the actual filings in the lawsuits,....... you name it..... how can you have even three brain cells to make such completely idiotic, weak, pathetic and ludicrous statement? Are you just THAT brainwashed or what?
ReplyDeleteI have been reading this thread and it just seems so unreal that all of this for a company that should not be a threat to you. I can not understand how YTB has hurt the travel industry when people are booking the basic travel online anyway.
ReplyDeleteWhy are you guys not going after Orbitz and Expedia because those are the guys that have taken mom and pop shops out of business.
See the problem is when there is something new people get scared and they began to attack.
If you are marketing your business YTB can not hurt you.
See I am also learning to Travel Industry and I understand that there are clients that will book online and there is clients that will book with a Travel Agency.
Please explain to me if there is a Travel MLM company that actual books travel why would it be a bad mix.
If there is a Travel MLM Company that uses TravelSavers and book Vacation using AppleVactions, TravelImpressions, grand-bahama and has the proper VAX Trainging.
Would you still say it Travel and MLM does not mix?
I know one thing you must book travel to get your personal IATA number, but if you are using any host agency you are working under the IATA until you sell $5000 for the year to earn your own IATA.
I think Travel and MLM has been good for me... I am learning to be a Travel Agents with the same tools that All Travel Agents use.
I am not part of YTB but I am part of another Travel MLM.
I wish everyone here the best and if people would put more energy into building your business there will be no need for all the whinning.
If YTB is doing something wrong then it will be taken care of but to bluntly say MLM and Travel does not mix is not true.
Devon I don't know what rock you've been living under, but there are lots of reasons why travel&mlm are a bad mix. Did your mlm require you to undergo any kind of travel training before you started telling people you are a travel agent? Do you have any idea how many untrained, unprofessional people have infested the travel industry because of the mlm model? And you can't understand why having a bunch of people come into our industry who can't even spell travel might be a bad thing, or hurt our credibility??
ReplyDelete"See the problem is when there is something new people get scared and they began to attack."
ReplyDeleteDevon, YTB is not new. They have been around for years. They have had years to get their act together. They had 18 months to get in compliance with the CA AG's office. YTB has thumbed their noses at travel agents. They have repeatedly told us they are going to take over the world and put us dinosaurs (TTA's)out of business. They have unleashed thousands and thousands of untrained people who are only in it for the perks, discounts, free travel and tax deductions. And, you wonder why we are upset? Travelocity and Expedia both comply with IATAN, play by the rules, don't recruit and have TTA's working for them. They are run by people who know travel and have been in the business. They don't thumb their noses at us and threaten to put us out of business.
Kim could have reached out to the travel agent community in his TW interview with Arnie W. But, he didn't. He basically said live with the "greenies" and we are not changing our business model. YTB is going to be the largest. He was arrogant and showed no interest in even remotely trying to make the travel industry better for YTB or us. As someone pointed out above it is a CASH COW. Run by professional MLM'rs. Most of the directors at the top have been in mlms before and are there to recruit. Travel is secondary. YTB doesn't service clients at all. At least Travelocity and the rest of them have customer service when their is an issue and don't refer people back to the vendor.
If you want to sell travel tons of legit hosts out there you can join. But, it's not about travel it's about recruiting. We (TTA's) worked hard, gotten our education, taken our lumps, paid our dues and you all just waltz right into the travel business and expect to be giving credentials and respect for paying $499 and a monthly fee. The majority in YTB has conduted themselves poorly on fams, at trade shows. You have used the internet to recruit the perks and benefits such as tax deductions. AND, threatened to put us out of business repeatedly. We have every right to be pissed off.
"We have every right to be pissed off."
ReplyDeleteYou also have every right to grow up. Which will you choose?
Oh, looky here we have an anonymous telling us to grow up because we are pissed off.
ReplyDeleteListen you ass, YTB trashed the travel industry. Has nothing to do with growing up. And, if you think otherwise you are in denial and need to be deprogrammed from the YTB cult.
P.I.O.T.B. here. Anonymous said... "You also have every right to grow up. Which will you choose?"
ReplyDeleteSo let me get this straight tiny YTBer. Should we show the amount of maturity that you have by adding nothing of value to this forum? To be an adult, you should know the difference between right and wrong and to be responsible for your thoughts, words and actions. You should have along the way, developed some modicum of morals, values, ethics and a conscience on the path to adulthood.
Therefore, how "mature" are you to align yourself with a conman who bilks hundreds of thousands of consumers out of money, lies and makes false promises? Why do you choose to belong to a "business" that mocks an sullies the Industry that it pretends to be a part of and is nothing more than a complete sham?
It is apparent what you are as a person, what you have chosen and how you lead your life then isn't it? You have made your bed; let's see how comfy that bed remains for you once the CA AG has it's way with YTB.
P.I.O.T.B. here. YTB is very desperate for new recruits obviously. I have seen in the last week, many come ons for YTB that are posted on the interent as though they are a "want ad". I could not pass up posting this misleading crock:
ReplyDeleteY T B - TRAVEL AGENCY NEEDS TRAVEL AGENTS (San Francisco
One of the biggest online travel companies in the World- YTB- needs travel
agents.
You get a chance of potential income 50.000+ a year all from home.
Company supply with website, free training, medical insurance, free travel for you and your family, tax deductions etc.
If you lost job, need extra income, like travel and help people, this business is for you. You do not have to be on the computer all day long. But website is available 24/7 for your clients.
Your clients can do for themself: look for airfares, vacations,cruises, tours,car rentals, concert tickets, even flowers... and you get commissions for that.
Check www.bestworldtrips.net for company info.
& job opportunities."
Disgusting, really disgusting.
P.I.O.T.B. here. Yet another pathetic come on:
ReplyDelete"Travel in style and for free!
there's a little company called ytb , you all will have heard of them soon, as they will be the biggest travel agency in the world very shortly! Here's the good news their hiring!!!! And I have the place for you to join ytb.com/thouse, I know this sounds like a gimic, but what i'm trying to share with all of you is that if i can make lots of money with this company so can you,and it doesn't cost you a arm and a leg to get involved .give it a shot and you will see how profitable it can be. ytb.com/thouse"
So now, it's not even "join" YTB anymore, it's YTB is "hiring"??? ROTFL Man this is beyond pathetic.
kholmes I guess I should be angry at anyone who uses blogger.com to create their blog instead of hiring real developers. You know how much training I had to go through to call myself a computer programmer but I am not mad because of change. I understand the YTB has not done what they should have done and believe they are being punished for it.
ReplyDeleteBut to make a blanket statment that MLM and Travel is bad is just incorrect.
Oh by the way take it easy what rock I was under there was no need to talk like that.
Hopefully you don't bust a vein in your head for being so angry.
kholmes Tell me is there some sort of Travel Agent Degree or can I find some training onliine and then join a host agency?
ReplyDeleteTo answer your questions http://www.travelagenttrainingcenter.com/
Anyone can train to become a travel agent ? I am training to become a travel agent while being in a MLM Company.
There are a host of bad travel agents and agencies out there.
Stop making blanket statments.
Devon--Blogger employs professional web developers to support the product. Blogger actually returns a product that does what they advertise it will do.
ReplyDeleteYTB does not. Poor analogy!
"Tell me is there some sort of Travel Agent Degree or can I find some training onliine and then join a host agency?"
ReplyDeleteWell, actually Devon there is. Surprise, surprise. The Travel Institute has a list of schools, online training etc. Far superior training than ANY MLM will give you.
http://www.thetravelinstitute.com/home.cfm?tn=standard&menuid=4&navids=1,4&pageid=7