Thursday, October 30, 2008

CLIA Close This Loophole

It was just brought to my attention that CLIA has a gaping loophole in their new requirements for the identification card.  This is the policy for 2009 and the bold emphasis is mine:
Please remember, prior to submitting your application for a 2009 CLIA photo ID card, the following qualification requirements must be met:

1. The individual agent or agency management must be affiliated with an active CLIA travel agency holding 2009 membership. Please encourage your travel agency to join or renew their CLIA membership early to avoid any delays in your application processing.

2. ID Card applicants will be required to complete and pass the exam for at least one annual recurrent CLIA live training seminar or CLIA online training program not previously submitted prior to applying for their 2009 cards.

3. 2009 ID Card applicants are required to be enrolled in, or to have achieved a designation (ACC, MCC, ECC, ECCS) in CLIA’s Cruise Counselor Certification Program.

4. In recognition of the owners and managers of CLIA member travel agencies who manage the agency business but are not necessarily front-line sellers of travel, each CLIA Travel Agency is entitled to a management allocation of no more than four CLIA ID Cards for which the above Certification qualification is not required although annual CLIA recurrent training is necessary. Promotional codes to facilitate this management allotment are available to CLIA travel agency management via e-mail confirmation with online membership renewals and within the 2009 CLIA membership kit sent to the agency upon membership renewal.
As this relates to YTB, they have "upwards of 117,000" independent business owners that would qualify according to point 4 above. So for $399, any RTA can join CLIA as an "agency" and receive 4 identification cards.

Since YTB claims that $149 will get you CLIA Application APPROVAL, I wonder if they are not indeed subsidizing this.** As they have lost the ability to market the perks (IATAN, production requirements, and the new CLIA requirements), perhaps they made a business decision to move the training online behind a firewall, charge $149 for it (although once production costs have been recovered there is no real cost), and then subsidize the balance of a CLIA membership (not an ID card) for the RTAs that take the class.

** YTB Corporate is not subsidizing this, but I do know for a fact that some resourceful Reps are indeed doing it. From the HBTA show this week, a Rep was holding a "recruitment session" outside the Einstein Bagels kiosk at the Convention Center--he was not recruiting on the floor or approaching anyone, but like a 3 Card Monte game on the street corner there was enough buzz to generate a crowd. Well sure enough, he was offering to pay anyone "full CLIA dues" to get the ID card if they signed up with him before the end of the show. More details on the show to come!
Share/Save/Bookmark

133 comments:

  1. I believe that the "agency" applying for the cards should need to provide proof of sales revenue under that CLIA ID before the card is granted.

    No agency sales revenue, no card, even for the owner.

    If they are a valid agency, and the agency owner doesn't sell, but has agents in the agency that do produce sales, this would be no problem.

    BTW, I am an agency owner.

    ReplyDelete
  2. JOhn knows the answer to the highlighted part as it has been discussed ad nauseum. He just wants to stir the pot.
    But, in case he needs to see it again...the 117,000 RTAs are not INDIVIDUAL AGENCY OWNERS. Everyone in YTB as an RTA would use YTB's CLIA number. So, YTB is the AGENCY and the 4 management positions would be 4 people TOTAL, not 4 people for each RTA.

    It as also been discussed the other day about application approval, but he simply chooses to ignore.

    John does a great job in bringing up questions, the only problem is he totally ignores the answers. I have been following and posting on this blog, for I am guessing about a year (since the Royal Caribbean deal) and many of the same items are answered with sources dozens of times and yet, he keeps asking the same question.

    Since so many people here like to talk about legal issues...."Objection.....asked and answered!"

    ReplyDelete
  3. Josh,

    RTA's are individual business owners, and for just $399 they could be an individual agency owner with their own CLIA ID card - that was the point.

    ReplyDelete
  4. I agree Josh and if John has the proof of the guy that was "recruiting" and using the CLIA card as an incentive at the trade show, then he should turn in the name. No one has a problem with that because we know and have been told that is not the place nor the time.

    ReplyDelete
  5. Joe,
    RTAs might be business owners but are NOT agency owners. Those individuals are not considered AT ALL individual agency owners. There is NO discrepancy. If you read CLIAs four points on this post, even CLIA makes a distinction between agents and agency owners. This is a non-issue.
    With respect to the person inappropriately recruiting, well that is an issue and should be taken care of. The problem is, is that at this point all we know is that it happened, according to John, we don't have a name.

    ReplyDelete
  6. Does a name really matter? Its just "another" one to report to YTB. It happens everyday on countless forums, blogs, u-tube. Why can YTB simply not put out a newflash to all their reps/rtas telling them simply to knock it off or they are cancelled. Plain and simple! I can honestly say if I was doing something that my company supposedly strickly prohibited and was caught doing so I'd be out on my ass. Yet it continues everyday.

    ReplyDelete
  7. Josh,

    - RTA's are agents of the YTB agency
    - RTA's own their own business
    - if an RTA pays CLIA $399, they can BECOME an AGENCY OWNER and get a CLIA ID as an AGENCY OWNER.

    There is nothing stopping the RTA from being an agent of YTB and owning their own agency (in CLIA's eyes) - just to get the ID - understand?

    This is the loophole....

    ReplyDelete
  8. When YTB gets into trouble and an RTA scams some people from travel, the line is that the RTA is an independent business and YTB has no liability, but in the interest of good will, they have so far made amends to the people that lost.

    As independent business owners, they CAN get a CLIA membership for their "agency". They can also book under any number of hosts according to their business plan.

    In states that do not require a SOT, you need to have a business banking account to obtain an agency membership with CLIA. Hopefully RTAs are smart enough to have a business account and have shielded themselves personally from liability.

    That is the loophole and it was confirmed the past three days.

    As to the guy recruiting...according to Kim Sorenson on the TW seminar, YTB has an "entire department" devoted to policing RTAs and sends people to "all" the travel shows to make sure this does not go on. Personally, I did not see any uniformed YTB Police and certainly they may not have seen it, but the recruitment session was reminiscent of a 3 card monte game on the street corner in New York--one guy working the scam and several other cohorts pretending that they made a ton of money and agreeing with his every word.

    ReplyDelete
  9. I agree that each and every YTB RTa is considered an 'independent' agency owner. If they are not, the implication is that they are 'employees' of YTB and that is entirely a different kettle of fish. As ICs, YTb cannot dictate who they do business with unless they chose to use YTBs ARC or CLIA. They are entitled to get their own CLIA number and bypass YTb entirely.

    ReplyDelete
  10. John, did you get the name of the person?

    Lisa, YTB did put out the statement of when and when not to prospect. They have done it on several company emails and is part of the First Class Training.

    ReplyDelete
  11. I did not get the name as I did not stay for the whole presentation. I figured Kim's elite team of undercover YTB Police would swoop in and handle the situation.

    This guy was doing it in the public areas of the convention center where several conventions passed through. It was not near any of the classes, meetings, meal functions, or the trade show, so I am imagining this is another situation where YTB might look the other way.

    Call HQ--Kim said he had YTB Police at all shows. This was in Baltimore.

    ReplyDelete
  12. Fire

    Putting out a statement and then doing nothing about it means nothing.! If you are going to state, as Kim did, that they are indeed policing this..why is NOTHING being done to stop it. Its your brethern that make you look badly, I would be pushing YTB HQ to do more about it if it were me. It's not my job, nor John's to report the foolishness and unprofessionalism within your ranks. It should be YTB's job to stop the nonsense. Obviously words are not working, fire them with no refunds for non compliance..maybe then it will stop!

    ReplyDelete
  13. So you didn't get the name but you are sure it was a YTB REP? John your case would be thrown out of court, like right now, if you brought something like this to court. You come on here saying this stuff but have to way to prove it. Then you Re-qualify it by saying
    "This guy was doing it in the public areas of the convention center where several conventions passed through. It was not near any of the classes, meetings, meal functions, or the trade show, so I am imagining this is another situation where YTB might look the other way."

    So if it was not anywhere near the convention the classes and such then why would you expect the "YTB Police" to be there?

    If one someone from YTB came with this same scenario with no proof you would be all over it.

    ReplyDelete
  14. Lisa, how can you say that NOTHING is being done? Maybe in the circles that you run with it might seem that way but do you think it's possible that there is a lot that goes on that you don't know about? I can debunk you argument that NOTHING is being done about noncompliance right now and it was highlighted on THIS blog. Traveling Mom.

    ReplyDelete
  15. Ahhh, so the enterprising YTB REP had no idea there was a Travel show going on at the Convention Center and just set up shop on a lucky day! So he wasn't involved with show per se and that means his recruiting methods using CLIA memberships is a-ok with YTB.

    Anyway, do the YTB enforcers actually go to travel shows or do they just say they do? This is the question.

    ReplyDelete
  16. Fireman, Traveling Mom (who I still think got a raw deal) was shut down because she was using YTB's name in a public blog. Same reason John was kicked out as a REP. Your hero Doug uses YTBs name daily in his blog. Why hasn't he been turned off?

    ReplyDelete
  17. We are not in court. ALl I am doing is relaying what I saw. Believe it or not. I don't care. He was in the travel convention because he had the name badge, but if you ever attended a small travel show in a convention center you might know how it could be set up. There are common halls, etc. You had to pass through this area from the registration to get to the classes. If you came in the main entrance to the center (and not the side entrance) you come into this lobby area.

    Hey, I did say it was a public area. Take it for what it is worth!

    ReplyDelete
  18. Travelling Mom is just one of MANY who do it. YTB was probably flooded with emails about her blog from many here, and maybe your side as well. I'm sure after all that complaining someone had to do something. However, with all the false BS she was proclaiming on the blog, and probably still is in her presentations, shes not shut down is she.? So she can claim as much false BS as she wants, as long as its not in print. Got it now!

    And if in fact you are not allowed to use YTBs name in blogs/forums/etc etc..why is Doug still allowed, or the THOUSANDS of other idiots on U-tube, Craigslist, WAHM, Linked in, etc etc etc...nobody shutting them down either.

    I've complained and emailed about many i've seen, shocker...nothing was done about them either. I actually had the girl at YTB email me back saying they were just passionate about their company, and YTB will be #1 in the travel industry. But according to Kim..theres no competition right..nobody in his organization makes such stupid remarks.

    ReplyDelete
  19. I have said for ages that YTBers do not understand the difference between being an employee of YTB and being an IC of YTB. This statement by Josh says it all:

    "RTAs might be business owners but are NOT agency owners. Those individuals are not considered AT ALL individual agency owners."

    RTAs are independent contractors, meaning, they own their own business. An agency is a business. How could they NOT be considered individual agency owners? They have to comply with all state registration requirements for businesses. They have to comply with any SOT requirements. THEY TAKE TAX DEDUCTIONS AS A BUSINESS OWNER. They are paying YTB for the use of a booking engine to facilitate people booking thru THEIR BUSINESS.

    I am an IC with a host. I am considered a business owner, so I could pay CLIA their $$ and get the card without passing any of the requirements, and my host has no say in the matter. The RTAs aren't any different - unless, of course, YTB wants the IRS breathing down their neck for employment taxes...

    ReplyDelete
  20. I still think you all generalize to much. ALL RTAs are not that stupid. Maybe you all know more than many in the company because you've been in the industry for SOOOOOOO many years. It's not a bad thing not to know, however. You learn each day. You all didn't know it all when you first became TTAs.

    ReplyDelete
  21. I must say, though, that this group has really been good for me. I have always wanted to learn as much as I can about anything I'm involved in. But being here has really increased my hunger to learn EVERYTHING I can in this industry. Just wait......

    ReplyDelete
  22. Technically, every individual YTBer can sign up as an individual agency owner with CLIA. They just cannot do so with YTB in their individual agency name. With that said, I cannot believe YTB would encourage their RTAs to do this, giving them a way to bypass YTB altogether and book direct with their own CLIA numbers.

    You all didn't know it all when you first became TTAs.

    No we didn't, but as a newbie TTA I still knew more than the typical off-the-street-without-training/knowledge-newbie-YTBer.

    ReplyDelete
  23. Just because you belong to CLIA does not mean you need to book using that number. An independent business person can affiliate with any number of hosts and book with them accordingly. If I have naked photos of some Cruise exec and get 75% on my own, I book on my own CLIA number. If YTB gets 16% on CCl and that is the best out there, then I book using YTB's number. If TPI has a good number on RCCL and I cannot book them with YTB and I don't have naked photos, I will go to TPI.

    ReplyDelete
  24. So Jakki, Do you consider yourself an independeant agancy owner, or are you an employee of YTB?

    I agree that you need to know all you can, and the more you learn, the more you will realize that YTB isn't for you. Their main focus is Lloyd, Scott and Kim and what 112,000 RTAs can do for THEM, not the other way around.

    ReplyDelete
  25. Ships 'N' Trips Travel said...
    No we didn't, but as a newbie TTA I still knew more than the typical off-the-street-without-training/knowledge-newbie-YTBer.


    You don't know what everyone knows.

    ReplyDelete
  26. eddie said...
    So Jakki, Do you consider yourself an independeant agancy owner, or are you an employee of YTB?

    I'm an Independent Contractor with the company. I own my own travel business and realize I can get my own CLIA number, if I choose. And I STILL want to be with the company.

    ReplyDelete
  27. Jakki, you didn't even know what CLIA's training was called yesterday until you looked it up. You don't know squat. And, if you did you would be with another host. Plenty of them out there that will take newbies like you who say they want to learn.

    As to YTB's recruiting and the policing efforts. The garbage is still all over craigslist, myspace, facebook, linkedin, Ning, blogs and every where else. YTB has looked the other way on all of that.

    Kim gave lip service in his interview with TW to make YTB look good with TW and Arnie. Policing is a joke in YTB.

    If they policed like you all say they do then they would shut down all of you idiots who post here on scam.com and wahm.com.

    Jakki and firemedic would be the first to go....

    ReplyDelete
  28. Sorry about that! As I was saying...Jakki and FireMedic both are RTAs with YTB and cannot agree on their status. This does not surprise me. In any case I feel badly for both of them to be so hoodwinked by slyer, smarter people.

    ReplyDelete
  29. Kit said...
    Jakki, you didn't even know what CLIA's training was called yesterday until you looked it up. You don't know squat. And, if you did you would be with another host. Plenty of them out there that will take newbies like you who say they want to learn.

    Ummm Kit, I think you were the one who was wrong. I knew what the training is called. I copied and pasted it here for you!

    And you're right!! Why the heck am I here????? I shouldn't be.

    ReplyDelete
  30. Bruce are you in Vermont or Arizona?

    ReplyDelete
  31. Bruce said...
    Sorry about that! As I was saying...Jakki and FireMedic both are RTAs with YTB and cannot agree on their status. This does not surprise me. In any case I feel badly for both of them to be so hoodwinked by slyer, smarter people.


    What didn't we agree about Bruce? We both said ICs.

    ReplyDelete
  32. My point was that John made his case about the REP that was pitching at the travel show (but then he says it wasn't near anything about the travel show). He didn't get a name or anything else but comes on here and spins it and an example of the out of control REPs. I would think that as critical as John is about YTB he would have had more than just hearsay.

    ReplyDelete
  33. Where are you, Jakki?

    ReplyDelete
  34. That depends on the time of year and whether you would like to buy maple syrup or prickly pear jelly. Right now? Neither.

    Where are you?

    ReplyDelete
  35. Firemedic...have you ever attended a conference? Here let me see if I can spell it out for you. He was NOT recruiting at one of the industry sponsored events (classes, meals, trade show, party, etc) However he was positioned in a public space wearing his travel trade show ID badge.

    TRADE SHOW------REP and Bagel Place-------CLASSES------MEALS

    So to go to the classes from the trade show yo need to walk through public areas and that is where he was.

    You really are dense.

    ReplyDelete
  36. sorry it wasn't FireMedic it was Josh but same difference,

    "But, in case he needs to see it again...the 117,000 RTAs are not INDIVIDUAL AGENCY OWNERS."

    ReplyDelete
  37. No I am not dense there John because I am calling you on this BS. You are the one getting defensive here and I reiterate that you did a crappy job here spouting off this dung about the REP when you very little or NOTHING to substantiate it. Yes I have been to trade shows and I am very familiar with how it is set up but that is all smoke in mirrors when you bring it up. Again, my point is that if we brought this sorry story to the table you would be all over it and you know it. And still again as critical as you are with YTB I don't see you just walking off without a name or more if this guy was truly doing something wrong the way you say he is if he was even truly with YTB.

    ReplyDelete
  38. Still getting Doug's newsletter Bruce?

    ReplyDelete
  39. Call bullshit all you like. Maybe if you got off your ass and did something related to TRAVEL like attending a show you would see the things that others do indeed see.

    I do not answer to you for sure and I will continue to post what I see, learn and know. If it does not jive with what you want to believe--well then I am afraid it is YOUR problem not mine.

    There were enough YTB folks there, I know you are all upstanding, honest, God fearing people, so why don't you use your extensive network of "upwards of 117,000" RTAs and find out who was in Baltimore and who was doing it or saw it.

    Maybe you are in tight with the Fire Chief here in BWI that maybe he can get you a copy of the surveillance video. I am sure there is one!

    ReplyDelete
  40. Anonymous said...
    Where are you, Jakki?


    Maryland

    ReplyDelete
  41. Bruce said...
    That depends on the time of year and whether you would like to buy maple syrup or prickly pear jelly. Right now? Neither.


    THAT was real informative!

    ReplyDelete
  42. Typical response from the TTA's on here when they are getting just a little bit defensive: start spewing at and attacking the person calling them out on the BS.

    John, if you actually saw someone doing something wrong or against YTB policy (if in fact the person was actually from YTB) then again I find it hard to believe you only came away with hearsay. It's not up to me to find someone else who was there. You are the one making the accusations and spins. You are the one that should have the proof. Like I said, this was court the judge would laugh at you.

    "I do not answer to you for sure and I will continue to post what I see, learn and know. If it does not jive with what you want to believe--well then I am afraid it is YOUR problem not mine."

    You make a post on here today whining to CLIA about a "loophole" then site the "3 card monte" game going on outside the convention. If someone was in fact using the CLIA as a recruiting tool I would think that someone griping about it would have walked about with more than hearsay. I say it again, you would call anyone from YTB on it if it was the other way around.

    ReplyDelete
  43. What the heck was John going to do firemedic? Go over to the YTB person who was recruiting and yell BUSTED! You really are a piece of work.

    Oh, and Jakki you copied and pasted AFTER you were caught. So, don't give me that song and dance.

    IF YTB was so worried about policing they would tell you all to keep your big yaps shut on here and the rest of the blogs and fourms where you spout off your drivel.....

    ReplyDelete
  44. "If it does not jive with what you want to believe--well then I am afraid it is YOUR problem not mine."

    LOL! That sure works both ways.

    ReplyDelete
  45. "What the heck was John going to do firemedic? Go over to the YTB person who was recruiting and yell BUSTED! You really are a piece of work."

    Kit, you mean to tell me that John, perhaps one of the most outspoken critics of YTB, saw this "3 card monte" game going on outside a TRAVEL TRADE SHOW, and couldn't come away with more than what he says he did? He has gone to several YTB functions inconspicuously and at least came away with names and such. And when he sees this, according to him, misuse of CLIA being used to recruit, he comes away with nothing? Give me a break. If he had actually had something here I am sure he could have found the time to nail this guy and would have been all over it. Instead all he comes away with is spin on something that was probably not anywhere near a "3 card monte" game.

    ReplyDelete
  46. Kit, he could have at least go a business card from the guy. That would have been the least he could have gotten. I doubt the person would have know who John was.

    ReplyDelete
  47. firemedic said...
    I say it again, you would call anyone from YTB on it if it was the other way around.


    From what I've seen, I think he would also.

    ReplyDelete
  48. Kit said...
    Oh, and Jakki you copied and pasted AFTER you were caught. So, don't give me that song and dance.


    What was I caught doing??? I gave a title of the training I was taking. You said, "I never heard of that". I went to the site, copied and pasted exactly what it said to prove what I was taking and to prove you wrong. You then say I did that AFTER I was caught???? Yes, I did it after YOU were wrong.

    You're right firemedic - there's something wrong with these people. Especially Kit.

    ReplyDelete
  49. Kit said...
    What the heck was John going to do firemedic? Go over to the YTB person who was recruiting and yell BUSTED! You really are a piece of work.


    And John's creative. He could have done something. At least have found out IF the person was from this company. We don't even know if he was. He could have been from TraVerus. They have dirty tactics as well. But I never hear anything about them. I wonder why??

    ReplyDelete
  50. They have dirty tactics as well? Oh so you do concede that YTB's tactics are slimy then. As for never hearing about them, might want to go back in the blog a bit, they are chatted about also..problem is the YTBers like to be in the public eye, and have more info public..easier to find.

    I honestly don't think John gives a rats ass wether you believe him or not Rod..I mean Firemedic. Even when you fools have proof shoved in your face we are still wrong.

    Way too much kool-aid flowing.

    ReplyDelete
  51. It must have been the Hawaiian shirt that just screamed YTB!

    ReplyDelete
  52. "Even when you fools have proof shoved in your face we are still wrong. "

    Shove the proof in my face about the "3 card monte game". Please!

    ReplyDelete
  53. It's really a question of trust. It comes down to wether you believe what John says or Fireman/Yakki/Josh et all. I know John was at the Baltimore show. Looks like Yakki is in MD too but she wans't there....Hmmm no brainer really. Hey are any of you YTBers members of TRO?

    ReplyDelete
  54. Travel Lisa said...
    They have dirty tactics as well? Oh so you do concede that YTB's tactics are slimy then. As for never hearing about them, might want to go back in the blog a bit, they are chatted about also..problem is the YTBers like to be in the public eye, and have more info public..easier to find.


    Yep, they certainly do. But NOT all of the agents do. And certainly those who do DOES NOT mean the company is guilty!!

    So, humor us.....let's see more of them.

    ReplyDelete
  55. eddie said...
    It's really a question of trust. It comes down to wether you believe what John says or Fireman/Yakki/Josh et all. I know John was at the Baltimore show. Looks like Yakki is in MD too but she wans't there....Hmmm no brainer really. Hey are any of you YTBers members of TRO?


    I wasn't there because I'm actually in Canada right now.

    Funny you ask about TRO. I know Denyse tried to join but Lisa kicked her out - with a nasty message as well.

    ReplyDelete
  56. No, eddie, it does not come down to who you trust. It comes down to whether or not it fits your belief system. If I were to have been there and reported an entirely different experience who then would you have believed?

    ReplyDelete
  57. I don't know anything about that. I do know a person with YTB (or was) is a moderator. Everyone is welcome as long as there are no recruiting attempts and I think you have to be OSSN or NACTA if you are homebased.
    Sorry you missed the show. Do you know any YTBers who did attend?

    ReplyDelete
  58. No, eddie, it does not come down to who you trust. It comes down to whether or not it fits your belief system. If I were to have been there and reported an entirely different experience who then would you have believed

    Trust IS part of my belief system. Who I would believe depends on what I know of the 2 parties.

    ReplyDelete
  59. eddie said...
    I don't know anything about that. I do know a person with YTB (or was) is a moderator. Everyone is welcome as long as there are no recruiting attempts and I think you have to be OSSN or NACTA if you are homebased.
    Sorry you missed the show. Do you know any YTBers who did attend?


    Wish that were the case.

    My Directors did attend the show. They enjoyed it. And I know they are very adherent to policies and wouldn't dare do anything that makes the company look bad. So, all of us are not RATS.

    ReplyDelete
  60. "Kit, you mean to tell me that John, perhaps one of the most outspoken critics of YTB, saw this "3 card monte" game going on outside a TRAVEL TRADE SHOW, and couldn't come away with more than what he says he did?"

    John is NOT the type to bust someone at a trade show. Especially in a city the size of Baltimore. Who knows this guy could have been packing a gun. YTB did promote the from Yale to Jail spiel in recruiting. I wouldn't either. Nor, is John the YTB police. IF YTB had their "police" out they would have seen the guy. But, they didn't. It's all lip service. The bogus claims, false statements and travel like an insider garbage is STILL ALL OVER THE INTERNET! What part of that don't you understand. Do a google search. I found just 3 today on my town's craigslist which I flagged to craigslist. I was recruited cojntinually by some nutcase that told me I would be put out of business by YTB until I reported him to my and his ISP. This stuff keeps happening. There is NO WAY IN Heck that YTB can police all of the RTA's/REPS running around. They created a monster. It's like disciplining a toddler after you let him have his way all the time. Doesn't work very well.

    And, to be quite honest. Kim was giving lip service. They have no intentions of being the YTB cops. They don't care as long as the $$$ keeps rolling in to pay for the Jet, the lawyers and all the other garbage.

    ReplyDelete
  61. Funny you ask about TRO. I know Denyse tried to join but Lisa kicked her out - with a nasty message as well."

    SO, Jakki you ADMIT to knowing Denyse. I have a post from earlier where you denied knowing Denyse. Denyse who? ROTFL. Now, who is busted. You are nothing but a LIAR! A LIAR! A hypocrite. Now beat it. Crawl back under that rock you came out from.

    ReplyDelete
  62. John, you got a good recommendation there. Really funny how you know so much about other people you haven't met. Even the intentions of our company leaders, whom I HAVE met. Tell me Kit, what's going on with TraVerus???

    ReplyDelete
  63. Something you didn't want the world to see????

    ReplyDelete
  64. Kit said...
    SO, Jakki you ADMIT to knowing Denyse. I have a post from earlier where you denied knowing Denyse. Denyse who? ROTFL. Now, who is busted. You are nothing but a LIAR! A LIAR! A hypocrite. Now beat it. Crawl back under that rock you came out from.

    So I guess you missed the post yesterday where I said I know her but I was not in her downline. I said Denyse who because YOU called me Denyse!!! I'm not Denyse but I do know her. You miss posts and then blame others and call them liars. Sorry - NOT BUSTED.

    ReplyDelete
  65. Something you didn't want the world to see????
    Oct 30, 2008 4:09:00 PM

    LIAR! D

    ReplyDelete
  66. Wow, and I'm taking time from my Geography course on Europe for this........

    ReplyDelete
  67. "John is NOT the type to bust someone at a trade show. Especially in a city the size of Baltimore. Who knows this guy could have been packing a gun."

    LOL! Now that is reaching! Great excuse there Kit. LOL!

    ReplyDelete
  68. You denied it in an earlier post. You are so screwed up you don't even know what you said. And, I doubt Denyse would share an email with you. You have 0 credibility here. I am also forwarding your taunting posts to corporate YTB so they can police YOU.

    ReplyDelete
  69. Jakki stop picking on Kit or she will call you more names and report you! Bully.

    ReplyDelete
  70. That great that your directors were there. Than no worries about the guy hawking Clia certification. If your upline saw/heard him he's busted! Right? I never thought all of you were RATS. I'd say about 2-4% are serious.
    I'm just sorry those serious ones are feeding the bears.

    ReplyDelete
  71. Now, let's see who the one with Alzheimer's is. Here is the exact post, word for word, from yesterday:

    Jakki said...
    Actually, Eddie, I have no control over that site - its not mine. I do know Denyse but not one of her downline. Her husband does not have a PhD, but a Theology degree. I'll tell the owner of that site though.
    Oct 29, 2008 5:38:00 PM

    There was NO denial Kit!!! And you say I'm taunting you???? Just because YOU can't keep up with conversations?? ROFL. You sound just like a senile old woman. Please!!

    And firemedic, you must have me mistaken for someone who cares about Kit!!!! Someone with her brains, I don't give a second thought.

    ReplyDelete
  72. Kit said...
    You denied it in an earlier post. You are so screwed up you don't even know what you said. And, I doubt Denyse would share an email with you. You have 0 credibility here. I am also forwarding your taunting posts to corporate YTB so they can police YOU.


    Well I proved THAT denial, huh? You can doubt all you want but who said Denyse shared any email with me?? Go ahead and show that Alzheimer's again. LOL And you can go and forward anything you like, if you choose to spend your time that way.

    ReplyDelete
  73. eddie said...
    That great that your directors were there. Than no worries about the guy hawking Clia certification. If your upline saw/heard him he's busted! Right? I never thought all of you were RATS. I'd say about 2-4% are serious.
    I'm just sorry those serious ones are feeding the bears.


    That depends Eddie. Depends on IF they saw him and IF he was definitely from this company. They would have definitely said something to him AND turned him in.

    And thank you for not thinking of ALL of us as RATS. Share that with your colleagues.

    ReplyDelete
  74. Funny you ask about TRO. I know Denyse tried to join but Lisa kicked her out - with a nasty message as well."

    LOL show me the nasty message, because I sure the hell didn't kick anyone out of TRO. I'm simply a moderator, I do not have that power, and when Denyse joined..I wasn't even in town. I found out after the fact..but glad to know I was responsible.

    ReplyDelete
  75. Hello all, I was told my name is being thrown around here. What did I do or not do now?? Guess I'm always up to something....lol

    ReplyDelete
  76. "That great that your directors were there. Than no worries about the guy hawking Clia certification. If your upline saw/heard him he's busted! Right?"

    OR the people that John said were playing the "3 card monte" weren't actually "hawking" anything, or they were too far off the path that were not seen by most others, or they were not actually YTB Reps, or any number of other possibilities. Guess we will never truly know but leave it to John to spin it in a bad light.

    ReplyDelete
  77. Sorry, I left part of post out......

    IF you weren't responsible Lisa, I apologize for accusing you. That's more than we ever get. But you must have at least told whoever was responsible. How would they know me?

    And the message was a song that's played saying "get out" or something weird.

    ReplyDelete
  78. Denyse every one knows you.

    ReplyDelete
  79. Ahh Denyse

    So Jakki claims I was responsible for having you thrown out of TRO and with a nasty message to boot. Can you please provide such evidence of this? I would love to see it, considering I had nothing to do with it, and wasn't even in town when it happened. Please enlighten me.

    ReplyDelete
  80. Maybe you arent a member of OSSN or NACTA? Or someother homebased agent affiliation?

    I saw your husband is a DR. of Theology. so he DOES have a PhD right Denyse? Just tying up a loose end...

    ReplyDelete
  81. I do not leave messages for people, nor did I toss anyone out of anything. I did not speak to anyone at TRO, nor recommend your deletion..I'm quite sure out of the thousands of agents on the forum, I'm not the only one who knows who you are.

    I do not hold PERSONAL grudges against anyone. I'm not fond of the company, or of its tactics..plain and simple.

    ReplyDelete
  82. AT said...
    Denyse every one knows you.


    WOW, I'm so flattered. My mother (God rest her soul) used to tell me when people spend so much time talking about you, they're at least thinking about you.

    Have a great day everyone. Gotta get on a webinar.

    ReplyDelete
  83. Travel Lisa said...
    Ahh Denyse

    So Jakki claims I was responsible for having you thrown out of TRO and with a nasty message to boot. Can you please provide such evidence of this? I would love to see it, considering I had nothing to do with it, and wasn't even in town when it happened. Please enlighten me.


    Read the above post Lisa. There is an apology. And the message was a song (can't remember the name) that ohhhh "Hit the road Jack and don't you come back no more"......

    Again, if you weren't responsible, my apologies.

    ReplyDelete
  84. Nope, wasn't me. So therefore I was falsely accused, WITHOUT PROOF THEIR FIREMEDIC. Will I cry about it..no.

    ReplyDelete
  85. eddie said...
    Maybe you arent a member of OSSN or NACTA? Or someother homebased agent affiliation?

    I saw your husband is a DR. of Theology. so he DOES have a PhD right Denyse? Just tying up a loose end...


    I am a member of NACTA Eddie. No, he does not have a PhD. He has a Doctor of Divinity degree.

    And why so many loose ends where I'm concerned? How did I get to be the topic of discussion??

    ReplyDelete
  86. Travel Lisa said...
    I do not leave messages for people, nor did I toss anyone out of anything. I did not speak to anyone at TRO, nor recommend your deletion..I'm quite sure out of the thousands of agents on the forum, I'm not the only one who knows who you are.

    I do not hold PERSONAL grudges against anyone. I'm not fond of the company, or of its tactics..plain and simple.


    Thanks Lisa.

    ReplyDelete
  87. I don't have any trouble believing that someone was hocking YTB at a bagel shop. Based on some of the crap that we've seen just in the last couple of weeks, is it really that hard to believe? Didn't we just witness traveling mom selling cruises and vibrators all in one conveinent location? C'mon! It certainly wasn't John's responsibility to police something like that. Why wasn't YTB there keeping an eye on things? How many times have they had to issue instructions on how to act and dress at a show?
    Denyse I am glad to see you are still around. We haven't seen you since I issued the challenge for you to back up your travel sales with some solid numbers.
    As for CLIA, well, what can I say. This is exactly why I dropped my CLIA membership. It's absolutely meaningless. Hell they should start giving the cards away like they give away stuff when it's gift with purchase time at Clinique. Buy a 7 night cruise, and get a CLIA I.D. card and some lip gloss. Anybody with a freaking pulse can get a clia card.
    Maybe I'll sign up my cat and see what happens.

    ReplyDelete
  88. Why would you even say that you received a nasty email from Lisa when you didn't? Come on Denyse you are supposed to be a good Christian woman? You are talking out both sides of your mouth again. You don't walk the talk honey. You are in business with a known bunch of scam artists, you lie about emails and then there is the false recruiting claims.

    As to AT's comments, I doubt if they were flattery. Know you as in infamous, as in bad, as in misguided soul.

    ReplyDelete
  89. Travel Lisa said...
    Nope, wasn't me. So therefore I was falsely accused, WITHOUT PROOF THEIR FIREMEDIC. Will I cry about it..no.


    So Lisa, you think I can get another shot? I really wanted to be a part of that forum.

    ReplyDelete
  90. Kit said...
    Why would you even say that you received a nasty email from Lisa when you didn't? Come on Denyse you are supposed to be a good Christian woman? You are talking out both sides of your mouth again. You don't walk the talk honey. You are in business with a known bunch of scam artists, you lie about emails and then there is the false recruiting claims.

    As to AT's comments, I doubt if they were flattery. Know you as in infamous, as in bad, as in misguided soul.


    Kit, I really did not say I received an email FROM Lisa. I said Lisa was a moderator and probably had something to do with it. That was based on past experience with her. AGAIN, I apologized.

    And I'm infamous? OK.

    ReplyDelete
  91. That was my mistake. She really didn't say Lisa DID it, but of course when someone says they may have had a part of it - what do you think?? Don't blame Denyse. Blame me, I can take it!

    ReplyDelete
  92. Funny you ask about TRO. I know Denyse tried to join but Lisa kicked her out - with a nasty message as well."

    Denyse, the above quote was taken from Jakki who has been a very bad girl here the last couple of days. Perhaps you should tell her not to say you said things that aren't true.

    ReplyDelete
  93. As to another shot at TRO you need to join another host.

    Denyse, there isn't one person on here that would not help you IF you decided to join another host. We don't have an issue with you personally. It's YTB's business model, mlm/pyramid scheme and the rest of the BS. Despite what you have been told and read we are not a bad lot.

    If you decide to join a real host let us know.

    ReplyDelete
  94. Jakki there were many that reconized Denyse's name over and TRO and reported it. While Denyse may be a perfectly nice person, she has made it clear she has no intention of leaving YTB. You can't have it both ways. It was in no way personal. TRO is for people who are serious about making a career in travel, not downlines. I am sure that YTB has plenty of message boards and forums to visit.
    TRO is a great organization and has a lot to offer for people who are serious about travel. It's not the right organization for an mlmer.

    ReplyDelete
  95. "I don't have any trouble believing that someone was hocking YTB at a bagel shop."

    There's a big surprise!

    ReplyDelete
  96. That was from yesterday Denyse. A web site, with your name in, it was touting YTB Airline airfares and how to book using YTBs IATA number. low and behold it was outdated and without the needed YTb approval. I don't know if it's still there

    ReplyDelete
  97. You know what Jakki? Apology NOT accepted. Do you know why? You come on here with a HUGE chip on your shoulder. You have taunted us. You have been a smart mouth. And, you have said Denyse said stuff when she didn't to stir up trouble and stick it to us. And, that's the other issue we have with YTB. I don't know how many times I have been told by YTB that you are going to put us all out of business, we are dinosaurs and all the other garbage you throw at us. That's the MAJORITY. They don't make any attempt to get along with us at all. At least Denyse, misguided as she is and firemedic have a little bit of fair play which is more than I can say for you.

    ReplyDelete
  98. "We don't have an issue with you personally. It's YTB's business model, mlm/pyramid scheme and the rest of the BS. Despite what you have been told and read we are not a bad lot."

    You don't have a problem "personally" but you call people here you don't agree with "idiots", "dolts", "dense", "morons", "liars", "waste of skin", "!@#holes", "scammers", .....

    That's not personal?

    ReplyDelete
  99. Hey did you guys know that YTB has a code of ethics?? There's a nifty little box called a decision test listed at the bottom of the file. Here is what it says.
    "When trying to make a decision or determine an appropriate course of action, Company Personnel should ask themselves:
    1. Is my action honest and truthful?
    2. Is my action legal and ethical?
    3. How would my action look in the paper or on TV? Would it appear improper or make me feel embaarrassed?"

    ReplyDelete
  100. "I don't know how many times I have been told by YTB that you are going to put us all out of business, we are dinosaurs and all the other garbage you throw at us."

    If you are being told that they were going to put you personally out of business then that is wrong. If what they meant to say is that the internet is putting the "mom and pop" travel stores out of business, then there is very little debate about that since that happened before we came along.

    ReplyDelete
  101. I MUST get a new computer - keeps freezing.

    Anywho, thanks guys for the conversation. I think either Kit or Kate said something about my not being around to prove my earnings. In case you hadn't heard, I did lose my mother. It was a huge loss for me. I'm still clearing her apartment and liquidating her assets. Sorry about that. And give Jakki another chance. She really is a good person.

    I really have to go. Gotta get on this webinar if the computer cooperates. Good day.

    ReplyDelete
  102. Here I go again...but what has YTB to do with Denyse and TRO? I understand That many do not care for her host, but other YTBers have joined - they just never mention who their host is. I mean one does not HAVE to. As long as she in NACTA (they don;t much like YTB either) shows she is serious at least about travel.

    ReplyDelete
  103. Umm fireman - I'm a pop and shop and am still going strong. Thanks, in part, to the internet.

    ReplyDelete
  104. If it was Traverus they were showing a YTB video on their laptop. Not the best recruiting method, but hey, no one ever said those that join MLM are the brightest bulbs in the pack.

    Lisa did not kick Denyse out of TRO. Lisa is a moderator over there and does not have the permissions to do that. Denyse may have been denied access because she did not meet the qualifications--you need to be a professional and your name or agency is verified for membership with one or more professional organizations including ASTA, ARTA, OSSN, NACTA, ARC, and IATA. CLIA is specifically exempted because of their lax control over their card. Membership in any MLM does not qualify. If you are in MLM and interested in selling travel--show the money and an affiliation with a legitimate organization. One of the lead moderators at TRO is indeed a YTB-RTA.

    I was not at the show as the YTB Critic. I was there in a different capacity and mixing the two would not have been professional. Believe it or not I can separate it--I do on TRO. But even so, how many of you would have pushed through a crowd of 15 (10 of which were likely cohorts) and confront the guy? Not me. And besides I had other things to attend to and could not stay for the whole trick.

    ReplyDelete
  105. NACTA's mission is to contribute something positive to our industry. YTB's is the opposite of that. YTB is being investigated by the CA AG. Nacta is not.

    ReplyDelete
  106. "If you are being told that they were going to put you personally out of business then that is wrong. If what they meant to say is that the internet is putting the "mom and pop" travel stores out of business, then there is very little debate about that since that happened before we came along."

    Firemedic have you NOT Been listening. YES! YES! YES! they meant us personally. And, there are few mom and pops left. Where have you been. You KNOW Nothing about the business. It's all about your down line. Nor, do you pay attention. DUH! How would you feel if illegals came in and took the fireman jobs? And, then said nah, nah, nah, we are replacing you and taking over the world?

    ReplyDelete
  107. firemedic said...
    "We don't have an issue with you personally. It's YTB's business model, mlm/pyramid scheme and the rest of the BS. Despite what you have been told and read we are not a bad lot."

    You don't have a problem "personally" but you call people here you don't agree with "idiots", "dolts", "dense", "morons", "liars", "waste of skin", "!@#holes", "scammers", .....


    Do you think you are the only one's who've been called names. You might need to go back some posts and re-read. I'm quite sure many of us, especially me, have been called quite a few. Again..not crying about it. Put your big boy pants on and move on.

    ReplyDelete
  108. Denyse

    That is not my call. You would need to appeal to either Richard or John at TRO and ask them for permission back onto the forum. I do not know why you were dismissed. I do know that their are certain requirements as its a board for Travel Agents who sell travel, there is no recruiting chatter, no arguing, no BS whatsoever. Simply agents, asking questions of other agents and helping one another out in time of need. Along with awesome resources as well..

    ReplyDelete
  109. Sorry to hear about your mom Denyse, but you were over here just a day or two ago posting your income. When you're ready to back it up please let us know.

    ReplyDelete
  110. Just a technical thing. From what Denyse says it seems like she may have been banned. And yes when you are banned for a TOS violation you are redirected to a site that plays Hit the Road Jack. So she must have tried to solicit or do something else.

    Otherwise her permissions (if she had access to the TA section) should have just been changed.

    ReplyDelete
  111. "Do you think you are the only one's who've been called names. You might need to go back some posts and re-read. I'm quite sure many of us, especially me, have been called quite a few. Again..not crying about it. Put your big boy pants on and move on."

    No I don't think that we are the only ones. And when someone on the opposite side of the TTA's does it, I call them on it but I would say it's 10:1 or more in favor of the TTA's nastiness. I am not whining about it but I was just debunking the "it's not personal" comment made about when he spoke for everyone.

    ReplyDelete
  112. "but I was just debunking the "it's not personal" comment made about when he spoke for everyone."

    I wasn't talking to you firemedic in the first place. So butt out.

    Let's ask your Traverus buddies how they feel about what you say about them shall we? Don't you have a fire to fight.

    BTW-BIL is a captain and the boys at the firehouse said to be sure I told you they really get a kick out of your posts. Although, they are kinda ticked off you are pretending to be one of them.

    ReplyDelete
  113. John said...
    Just a technical thing. From what Denyse says it seems like she may have been banned. And yes when you are banned for a TOS violation you are redirected to a site that plays Hit the Road Jack. So she must have tried to solicit or do something else.


    Hey John, just to clarify that issue a little farther, trust me I didn't do anything. It HAD to be personal because the message said I was denied access because I was a troublemaker. Imagine that! LOL I didn't get even get a chance to GET IN THE site to do anything or have a TOS violation. So it had to based on something somewhere else. I certainly DID NOT try to solicit. I would never do something like that, contrary to what some of you may think.

    But hopefully you all know that I AM serious about travel whether you agree with my choice of host or not. I may have disagreed with some people but I AM NOT a troublemaker.

    ReplyDelete
  114. AT I could care less if whether or not you think my career is.

    ReplyDelete
  115. Why does everyone here think we live our lives based on what they say and think?????

    ReplyDelete
  116. She could try again and she should. But she probably STILL won't be allowed there. Shame.

    ReplyDelete
  117. Jakki, it's not a shame. It's her choice! She chooses to stay with YTB, and therefor chooses to be a member of TRO.

    Here's what I don't get...
    If you wanted a career in business, would you go to the school with the worst reputation, or would you try to get into Yale?
    If you wanted a career in music, would you choose to be taught by a guy who owned a music store, but didn't know how to play an instrument?

    So if you want a career in travel, would you choose the company with the worst reputation with the industry and the bbb, and who didn't have a single board member with any travel industry experience? Does that seem like a smart move?

    ReplyDelete
  118. Well Kate, I chose to buy a computer and I bought one from Microsoft. They've had lots of lawsuits!!! That IS what you're talking about right? Or I also chose to buy a hamburger and I purchased from McDonald's whose also had many lawsuits!! Come at me again.

    And I wouldn't choose to go to Yale either - costs too much. Do you have a problem with University of Phoenix?? They're internet, but is also a good school of choice. I think they've also had some lawsuits.

    ReplyDelete
  119. Oh and Denyse you ticked a lot of agents off on wahm.com. That's another reason you are not very popular.

    ReplyDelete
  120. The difference between MacDonald's, Microsoft and the University of Phoenix is they are not MLM/Pyramid Schemes like YTB.

    ReplyDelete
  121. "So if you want a career in travel, would you choose the company with the worst reputation with the industry and the bbb,"

    Funny you should mention the BBB there. Have you checked the BBB lately on us?

    ReplyDelete
  122. Gee, you mean THIS BBB YTB report where they go on at length about the CA AG lawsuit, The AG of Illinois issue, the fact that the BBB reveals YTB's SEC filings and how much YTB sells in actual travel, versus recruiting, and in the the same report where the BBB confirms YTB's loss of IATA??? http://stlouis.bbb.org/WWWRoot/Report.aspx?site=142&bbb=0734&firm=110220794

    ReplyDelete
  123. By the way, this report is from the St. Louis BBB and is dated Oct. 30th 2008. It also states that YTB is NOT a BBB accredited member.

    ReplyDelete
  124. Jakki, your attempt to compare microsoft to ytb is one of the most desperate attempts to sugar coat or defend the YTB lawsuit that I have ever seen.
    If you want to be successful in a career in travel, you cannot do that with YTB. Their reputation is in the toilet, and their executives have already made it clear that they don't give a shit about the travel industry. So, if you're looking for a way to ruin your reputation and guarantee that you will never be successful, please carry on with YTB. Look at the bright side! You'll never have to worry about what you're going to do when you retire, or capitol gains tax.

    ReplyDelete
  125. kholmes said...
    Jakki, your attempt to compare microsoft to ytb is one of the most desperate attempts to sugar coat or defend the YTB lawsuit that I have ever seen.


    I am not trying to sugar coat anything. It is what it is.

    ReplyDelete
  126. "It also states that YTB is NOT a BBB accredited member."

    And do you know what it takes to be a BBB accredited member?

    Yep, money. BBB is a "pay to play" entity. They are a for profit business. But, notice it is no longer an "unsatisfactory".

    ReplyDelete
  127. That is a pretty damn, weak and lame response as usual FM. First, you ask if anyone has seen YTB's BBB report laetly, then when I post it and included all the negative info (there was NO positive info really) you come up with that pathetic remark! ROTFL I bet your favorite ride at the playground as a kid was the merry-go-round.

    ReplyDelete
  128. The BBB is a non-profit agency. You need to read their entire website. But then, why would you? It's all about mis-information and spin with you as usual. Snore.

    ReplyDelete
  129. I especially enjoyed the details of both AG's legal actions on the BBB's site, the SEC filings (in detail I might add) that prove how YTB earns their income and what the average money earned by members are, the loss of IATA etc. and all you can say is Good Golly Miss Molly YTB is no longer considered unsatisfactory. LMAO Man, you are a real piece of work! Do you actually believe half of the b.s. that you state?
    If I were a consumer and I read the entire report form the BBB's website on YTB, I'd run like hell.

    ReplyDelete
  130. AT said...
    The difference between MacDonald's, Microsoft and the University of Phoenix is they are not MLM/Pyramid Schemes like YTB.


    Got it AT. So I guess I should mention MLM opportunities and THEIR lawsuits.

    OK, how about:
    Pre-Paid Legal
    Tastefully Simple
    Silpada Jewelry
    Pampered Chef
    Melaleuca
    Mary Kay (which my mother-in-law worked for many years)
    Market America
    Arbonne
    ACN
    National Safety Associates (Juice Plus)

    I'm sure you and others have used something on this list at some point.

    Oh I got it again. But it ain't YTB!!

    ReplyDelete
  131. Well Yakki, I read this and thought of you:

    The Mob and the MLM: A Stretched Analogy?

    Talk to a mobster, and he will tell you that he is "merely misunderstood in his benevolent intentions." "We are just trying to 'build our business.'" "It's all a conspiracy to make us look bad." "The Feds are out to get us because they are jealous or afraid of our new way of life." "Why, look at all the good we do!" "We are looking more legitimate every day." "Here's a statement from a famous DA that the Mob is really a good organization and no harm ever comes from it." "We've even got a minister to endorse us now!"

    ReplyDelete
  132. Here you go Jakki. Read this. And read the blog on the right hand side too. You can read right?

    http://www.pyramidschemealert.org/PSAMain/news/YTBProsecuted.html

    ReplyDelete