Sometimes I have to wonder what crawls into some people's heads when they post on the Internet. It becomes even more incredulous when you are operating in a company that freely admits that their business practices may be deemed illegal in the future.
Yesterday on another completely public forum, an RTA not only explained how she was defrauding her own credit card company, but possibly breaking seller of travel laws (if they exist in Michigan), and violating her YTB agreement in one fell swoop.
Well, one might argue, there is anonymity on the Internet. That is true to a degree, but really now, when you make admissions like this in a public forum and then follow it up with your email address, I just have to wonder. Toss in a public profile identifying her home town and, well it does not take the CIA to track her down.
Harry Anderson, a casual friend of mine who used to live in New Orleans and was instrumental in helping to rebuild the city moved away to the mountains because he felt the City was "stuck on stupid". I imagine if Harry is reading this now, he would have the same opinion of Rose Travel!
I get everything that you have all said.... But I am quite smart, my travel website monthly fee is free to me...If you know the platform and how YTB works, I know longer pay the monthly reoccuring fee. Also, I understand all about 100% commission.... I have been in sales for 27 years, (I'm 47) I understand that I need to be an expert in the field to service thoses who call me about travel, I will also have my CLIA card soon. Just as you were once GREEN, so am I, but thats the nature of being new to any "Sales" industry. I am a fast learner and have already booked serveral trips, and not through my website, I have booked them directly through the vendor....and guess what I earned 100% of the commission. (I did not make you or anyone in the industry look bad when I spoke directly to the Vendor...my most recent booking was with "Beaches" and yes I earned 100% of the commission, I did not share it or split it with YTB). I also have had bookings from my website from people who were referred to my site that I do not even know, so I get 60%...I am OK with that, I did not do anything to earn more than that, I never met the travelers or spoke to the travelers, so again 60% for doing nothing is still good to me.And in a subsequent post after the error of her ways was noted:
To Yvette: you can reach me via email at rose.travel@sbcglobal.net, as I am interested in getting more details from you. I am a business woman and I always keep my options open to hearing what you have to share with me. I am a open minded person so I will listen and not judge you or anyone else for that matter.
Thank you for all your comments.
I did not violate anything, took the net rate (charged it to my Company CC) and invoiced my client the full rate, they wrote me a check and there you go....100% commission. (FYI... I was paid prior to charging the trip). So I am in compliance, wouldn't you agree?And if that was not bad enough, a Rep peer of hers who offers the following credentials:
Have been a rep since 2001 - just not active. Not an RTA....offers a resounding endorsement of her actions.
My IATAN card is through my host I've been with since 1996.
My CLIA card is through my own company.
Tom
Some RTA's are smart enough to get with a host or get their own CLIA # and book direct with suppliers. I recommend this to any RTA that isn't within a State that has a SOT# requirement. Why earn 60% when they can earn 100% ? BUT - still do the marketing business and recruit people.So, let me ask a few questions to a few different groups here...
Tom
- Consumers ...how comfortable are you knowing that this may be happening to your transaction?
- Fellow YTBers...how do you feel getting 60% when she is getting 100%?
- YTB corporate...how do you feel that you seemingly have lost complete and total control over what your RTAs and Reps are saying and doing under your name?
- American Express, Visa, MasterCard or Discover...how do you feel about awarding points or perks for a transaction such as this?
- Attorney General in Michigan....how do you feel about Michigan consumers transacting business in this manner?
- Shelby Township Michigan...is this business entity violating any local laws or ordinances?
- IRS...how do you feel about this person likely writing off a customer's vacation as a business expense?
- Suppliers...how do you feel about your liability and your reputation should the final payment not be made?
- Consumers again ...do you think this is a single "rogue RTA"? Or do you feel it may be a bit more prevalent with 140,000 of them enrolled in the program?
- Teachers...how the hell did this "quite smart business woman" graduate from fifth grade?
Well, when you recruits can come from Yale or Jail, this is what you get.
ReplyDeleteYou would think with that spiffy new training program they've been bragging about, someone would have mentioned that defrauding the company is not ok.
But with so many websites telling people they can be a millionaire with no work what so ever, this really isn't all that surprising. What's surprising is that she was dumb enough to post it in a public forum while trying to make the point that she was smarter than the rest of them!
Actually, none of this is surprising. It is probably rampant. Think about it. You buy in expecting to be getting a $10,000 check real soon and certainly $100K by the end of the year.
ReplyDeleteReality sets in and you have worked your ass off for the upline and earned $850 in travel commissions and $900 in marketing commissions when you expected a lot more.
Now all of a sudden that additional 40% looks mighty appetising! Screw da man, I am entitled to it so I am gonna take it.
It will only be a matter of time with 150000 of these ying yangs running around that the clients will getting ripped off. But I bet this crime will be like rape--rarely reported. Since they prey on relatives and friends, they are much less likely to report it and just try to work it out or forgive it.
Really a mess if you ask me. Huge liability on YTB.
Surprising -- not at all. Very few of these folks (from what I have seen ) have much intelligence. I am still laughing at his "cocaine white" references--I wonder if that is really true!
I live in Northern Ca and Cocaine White Bently is what John Travolta drives. That is a term used by many in Hollywood. I don't get why the giggles about that term, that is all it is. I think that woman is crazy to post such a thing. I think that you TA's and YTB people make anyone not want to get in any travel business at all. Thank goodness for traditional jobs.
ReplyDeleteLOL - always stretching it eh john.
ReplyDeleteNothing says that a ytb rta can't book outside ytb so long as the rta doesn't represent themselves as a ytb rta in the process.
I know dozens of rta's that book direct - what's the big deal?
Now - putting it on their own credit credit card isn't such a great idea.
But - why shouldn't someone be able to earn more?
The only reason to use ytb is for the rep building.
In addition - those booking direct should always have the money paid directly to the vendor and get a commission check back.
Now - I can't speak for this Rose - but, it certainly isn't illegal nor unethical to book direct.
Tom
p.s. - and johnny - you know I'm not active with ytb.
And Temptress -
ReplyDeleteIt's not "defrauding" the company if she booked direct using your own info and not representing herself as a ytb rta - now is it?
Booking direct isn't a crime - so long as you aren't misrepresenting yourself . . .
Geez!
Tom
Tom, there was no spin there. You said you are a rep since 2001 just not active. Where is the spin.
ReplyDeleteAccording to section 12 of the RTA agreement she is in violation. It might make sense for you to read and bone up on something before you start to offer sage advice.
And it is doubtful that this woman is booking as herself as she has only been in the industry (according to her post) a few months. So it is doubtful that she has earned any other credentials other than those issued to her by YTB when she signed up. She even states that she does not have a CLIA card.
She admits she has booked "several" trips like this and has not shared it with YTB.
So come on Tom, what do you think is really going on here? She is scamming YTB and you are as well.
How ironic is that..scamming a scam.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteI live in Northern Ca and Cocaine White Bently is what John Travolta drives. That is a term used by many in Hollywood. I don't get why the giggles about that term, that is all it is. I think that woman is crazy to post such a thing. I think that you TA's and YTB people make anyone not want to get in any travel business at all. Thank goodness for traditional jobs.
February 8, 2008 1:13 AM
You don't understand why that is "tacky"? do you believe that John Travolta refers to the color of his car as "cocaine white"?
You forgot to mention she's also conning her own upline out of their cut of the travel commissions.
ReplyDeleteLOL - ytb cannot restrict a persons ability to earn a living. The basic agreement, especially #12 wouldn't hold water if challenged.
ReplyDeleteFor a rta to book direct when not using ytb's agency numbers - makes great sense to earn a higher commission.
Just because someone is affiliated with ytb does not mean they can't do their own thing - regardless of #12. I know - I was challenged years ago on the same issue AND it didn't hold water.
In addition - how am "I" scamming ytb johnny?
Tom
Wasn't the smartest thing for her to put that on a public website. That is her own demise. But then again, when you have people who clearly do not understand the travel industry as we've professed so much, this is what happens. Not to mention that yes, she is indeed shafting her own upline. Thats ok? In essence shes stealing from her own family/friends whomever she's recruited into the program.
ReplyDeleteTom,
ReplyDeleteIf she is using YTB as her host agency, and cutting YTB out of their percentage of the commission, then she is absolutely defrauding them. I have never heard of a host agency that will allow you to use their number, and giving you the option of cutting them out of their percentage of the commission. That doesn't make any sense. If one of my ICs was doing that I would terminate them on the spot. If you are going to use someone else's IATA or CLIA to book travel you have to pay for the privilege of doing so. What is going to happen at the end of the year when the host receives a tax statement that includes commissions they never received because the IC circumvented the system?
To quote Bugs Bunny..."What a maroon".
ReplyDeleteTom--she is not booking on her own. She has not earned a CLIA card yet after only being in for a few months. She certainly has not received an IATAN card either. In fact, she is proud that she did not give YTB their cut.
ReplyDeleteI know #12 will not hold water. If it does, all of a sudden YTB will have 140,000 employees and they don't want that.
And the INTENT of #12 is to have travel booked through them. I think it is pretty clear and if you are advocating booking elsewhere to circumvent the agreement, I do think you are scamming them!
Now, I wonder if YTB actually would have found out since they seem to have issues with reporting sales. I mean, they "glean" numbers from the vendors in order to report. Maybe they would never have noticed that the vendor was reporting a sale, and that they paid a commission, but no commission income is showing up...
ReplyDeleteAnne CTC and with over 100,000 of the RTAs running around, I wonder how widespread the problem is. I agree with Jon they can't control these peple and it will be the downside of them. Just wonder how long it willtake
ReplyDeleteHow can she even circumvent and get paid, without providing an IATA number?? Do these vendors simply "believe" that just because you say you're due a commission that you are?? If this is the same woman who posted about netfaresonline....didn't that site look like a scam in itself to you? Sounds like the same person who claimed she was keeping all of the commissions herself. If you provide an IATA number (valid or not) the payment should/would go to the IATA holder, not the person booking it. I think this woman is smoking crack!!
ReplyDeleteIMO - this is nothing short of embezzlement......
ReplyDeleteLuanne...there is a way around everything. Call in identify yourself with an IATA number. If it is in the system, good to go.
ReplyDeleteFinal payment comes around, either send a check or call in a net amount via credit card and you have 100% of the commission.
The vendors do not care. They have their money and they feel it is an internal control oin the part of the agency.
I had an IC that did it to me. I never knew till I got an override check indicating the number of PAX. When I asked for the bookings, I easily discovered the IC and the clients and so forth.
The local DA and RCCL all said that it was not against RCCL but against the agency. It was up to me if I wanted to press charges. There were about $16K in commissions "paid" and under my agreement with the IC, I was entitled to 30% . So then I need to ask do I want to sue and risk the publicity and chance of losing for $4800.
It is all about controls. Wonder why many vendors no longer accepe net payments any longer?
She said :OK with that, I did not do anything to earn more than that,
ReplyDeleteCome on, you did nothing so why do you feel entitled to ANY of the commission much less 60%
Except that some Cruiselines will no longer accept net payment on a credit card - it has to be full.
ReplyDeleteThe key here is as long as the agent is selling travel under a different agreement AND not representing themselves as a ytb rta in that transaction - what's the deal?
ReplyDeleteAgents sell for different companies all the time - but, when they do they are representing themselves as the agent or representing a host. An agent can certainly have more than one host.
Again - it happens everyday.
Now - if an agent is representing themselves as an agent for ytb and bypasses - well, that's wrong.
The "spirit" of the agreement is that if selling travel on behalf of ytb AS an agent of ytb - then the transaction falls under #12.
ytb certainly can not require, nor enforce - that an individual book solely for them. In addition - they are an independent contractor - they receive a 1099.
Tom
temtress said -
ReplyDelete" If she is using YTB as her host agency, and cutting YTB out of their percentage of the commission, then she is absolutely defrauding them. "
Yes - if this was so. Who's to say she didn't book it via other channels? Has that been defined?
" I have never heard of a host agency that will allow you to use their number, and giving you the option of cutting them out of their percentage of the commission. That doesn't make any sense. "
Me either. But - my posts weren't totally related to rose. BUT - what agency numbers were used for the transaction? ytb's?
ALSO -
Who said she used ytb's #'s? Did she circumvent - or did she book direct using her own identification?
Is she used ytb's #'s and did net - she was wrong.
In instances of other ytb rta's booking direct - they do it via another host - or by having their own accounts - their own CLIA#, etc.
If they book under ytb - then ytb needs to control payment.
Tom...she signed up with YTB two months ago. She does not have a CLIA card. She thinks YTB is going to conquer the world.
ReplyDeleteWho the hell do you think she booked it under?
Maybe AVC took her on..what do you think?
ALSO -
ReplyDeleteOne can be just a rep with ytb and build a team - and book travel through any host they choose.
That's what I may do in the future.
Tom
See- over at travel weekly - where this all started - Rose said:
ReplyDelete" I am a fast learner and have already booked several trips, and not through my website, I have booked them directly through the vendor....and guess what I earned 100% of the commission. (I did not make you or anyone in the industry look bad when I spoke directly to the Vendor...my most recent booking was with "Beaches" and yes I earned 100% of the commission, I did not share it or split it with YTB). "
Nowhere did she say she booked on behalf of ytb - she said she spoke "directly" to the vendor. Now - did Beaches allow her to book for a client using her own credit card - without asking for an agency #?
If she represented herself as a ytb rta - then she was wrong. Did she or didn't she? Who knows? Ask Rose I guess . . .
Tom
Braches requires a clia or iata or arc to book. Rose does not have a clia or iata or arc. Did I read in one of the endless YTB rules that if you are YTB than you are ONLY YTB? No booking via another host?
ReplyDeleteWhat Tom is saying is, yet again, YTb cannot control their RTAs.
And Tom can't book using YTB cause he has another host...or does he really? More hot air Tom? I bet YTB kicked him out for violation of the RULES!
Tom-Why do you give a darn if she is with YTB or not? Last I checked they are not your host. Why keep defending them?
ReplyDeleteMy host? Nah . . .
ReplyDeleteI have many friends in ytb.
ytb since Summer of 2007 made a HUGE swing towards encouraging their rta's to actually sell travel - and they have. They have increased training and recently have taken steps to ensure rta's earn the perks and benefits available to producing travel agents.
They have withstood what seemed grave challenges and prevailed. Certain pending developments will take ytb over the top AND solidify itself as a player in the travel industry by producing over ONE BILLION in travel sales in 2008.
In addition - now is the time to buy some stock.
I predict it will triple before Summer and most likely within weeks of a HUGE development that may be on the short term horizon . . .
Buy a million shares and you may have $3 mill before Summer.
Tom
After you Tom....but for your sake I hope you are wrong. Remember Martha Stewart went to jail for a seemingly innocuous comment. It was not nearly as brash as "I have many friends in YTB" followed by "the stock will triple by summer or sooner"
ReplyDeleteRisky business my friend!
lol - john u always spinning . . .
ReplyDeleteI have no "interest" in ytb financially or otherwise.
For my "friends" sake I hope the stock increases 1000% fold . . .
LOL @ you comparing me with MS - just too dam funny johnny.
That would be like me comparing you to a real journalist . . .
LOL - Too funny . . .
Tom
John said: [i]Final payment comes around, either send a check or call in a net amount via credit card and you have 100% of the commission.[/i]
ReplyDeleteI guess I'm just too honest for own good. Always afraid I'd get caught I guess. Heck, it's worth it to me to have the agency take care of the books, overhead, accouting crap. I never really thought about it much, but you're right that it would be pretty easy.
In essence shes stealing from her own family/friends whomever she's recruited into the program.
ReplyDelete1st of all, a person's downline gets nothing for her, my or anyone's commissions. The UP-LINE gets the 50% match. The one who sponsored me gets a 50% match of what I make (excluding bonuses).
Also I find it hard to swallow this as a truthful statement by "Rose". I deal directly with vendors al the t ime, and they do ask me for my #. Each time, I gave it to them, and NOT ONCE received 100% commission. She might have a friend who is a TA and is using that # instead, and when the friend gets paid, the commission is given to her (via her friend). this is speculation, but one thing I know for sure is that if she is giving the YTB ARC #, then she is DEFINATELY NOT getting 100% of the commission.
Proud---you are wrong again. The number gets you into the system. Most suppliers will take a net payment for a booking. That is what happens when someone pays cash. YTB takes the commission at the time of payment (not after travel). So if someone paid in cash, the RTAs are actually giving YTB an interest free loan on their share.
ReplyDeleteMany suppliers will also take a credit card for the net amount. This is what she did.
She made a booking. Final payment comes, the client pays her in cash or check (or even a CC if she can process) and then she used her credit card to pay the net. So she has 100% commission at the time of final payment. NO need to split with YTB no need to wait till travel is completed.
Now where she should get caught is that that sale is tagged to the YTB number and at the end of the year during the gleaning process, there should be a discrepancy...sort of like "oh, we never received the commission on this".
But I am not sure YTB does that (they might) since it seems that they rely on the RTAs to submit a commission redemption form to pay it out.
Let's state this scenerio.
ReplyDeleteShe talks directly with the supplier, and makes a booking for her client. She accepts the installment payment options from the client. When she receives the final payment from the client, she puts it all as a net payment... thus making a profit from the client directly. She then files a commission claim form and gets the other 60% commission from YTB. This would equate out to be 100% commission.
Wow! She acted like a TRADITIONAL travel agent! She found a way to charge the client an agent fee!
Proud. Please please read before you make comments like that.
ReplyDeleteIf she made a net payment, she has all the commission the supplier is going to pay. If she submits the form to YTB YTB is not paying off that--they pay when they receive the commission which they are not getting---because she kept it all!
wWll, I don't do business that way, so I'm just drawing straws at what she did exactly... just as you are.
ReplyDeleteIf she didn't go through YTB, she is not really defrauding YTB. Now, if she found a way to go through YTB and pulled this off, then she would be defrauding YTB. She may have been a travel agent before joining YTB and still had her own IATAN # to present to the vendor. Your guess is as good as mine John.
Unless we get the total facts on this, this topic is nothing more than more meaningless bnter.
Proud. Please please read before you make comments like that.
ReplyDeletePlease read her post--she explained VERY clearly what she did. It circumvented YTB and if she is in your downline (very well could be since I believe she is in Florida) she took some food off your table as well.
Nope, she's not in my downline. Thank you for your concern John. I'm safe from her. Anyway, if she was, and she did take food off my table, it would have been very small crumbs... as she is stil quite green with YTB, and I am a Director.
ReplyDeleteThere are many people in Florida who are not in my downline. I do have people in other states in my downline too.
I am glad that you are so fare above her that her indiscretions are insignificant to you.
ReplyDeleteFrom my point of view, she ain't that green. She figured out how to beat the system in a short time. As I said, it looks like she scammed the scam!
I also read the whole thing. I even clicked on the link and read that messageboard. There's still bits and pieces missing. She's not telling the whole story... just the inside cover flap of the book so to speak. We'll have to stay tuned for more info when and if it comes.
ReplyDeleteso she says...
ReplyDeleteAnd like I said, she is not in my downline. I've got names of everyone in my downline, and there's no Rose Travel there.
"I've got names of everyone in my downline, and there's no Rose Travel there."
ReplyDeleteDoes anyone else think that sounds kind of strange? Why would anyone question who is in your own down-line? Shouldn't you know every person in your downline or at least, know the names? You'd better have the names of every person in your downline....