Wednesday, February 20, 2008

A Former RTA Speaks

I received this email from a former RTA yesterday. He requested that I not include his name, but his story, I imagine, is very typical.

The reason I'm writing is to tell you that you are 100% about this company. I was once a YTB RTA and I can tell you that from my experience and my perspective, the guys running this company are a bunch of people that are interested in whatever enterprise they can engage in to make a buck...never mind the legality or morality of it. (See YTB Cars, etc.) Ultimately, I guage YTB to be the lastest in a long line of MLM's that actually got off the ground enough to make waves and a little money, nearly all of which is cocentrated at top.
The real shame of this company is that, like all MLM's (I had not been involved in one before, but imagine they are all like this) is that they coach unsuspecting saps on how to rip off friends and family. They put fast talkers in front of a room full of poor dopes that are just looking for something, anything to get them out of their rut. People that have never been in business for themselves, people that have never sold or recruited people. Basically, the complete opposite of people that should be attracted to YTB were it a legitimate enterprise. These unsuspecting people are told just enough to be dangerous and given a bunch of unsubstantiated statistics and "real life" examples and told to get after it. The sky is the limit!
The thing that really makes me dismiss the entire thing is that fact that their model could actually be a real business. They just choose not to run it that way, because it would be too much like real work requiring real business acumen and real results...something I imagine the leadship can only produce in the vacuum that is MLM. The concept is legit and their websites are nice and functional. They could have set this up to frachise the system to people "in the business" or aspiring Travel Agents...that would run it like a business, not like a part time job. However, I imagine a conscious decision was made at some point that it would be easier to con non-business people by the thousand than "sell" business minded individual by the dozen. It's unfortunate and dishonest. YTB is succesful because it prays on all of the personality traits that "get rich quick" types have. Vanity, Income potential, percieved importance, no need to extensive knowledge or training.... the list goes on. These are the same traits exhibited by the principles. In fact I once remarked, "well, if those guys can do it, then anyone can"

105 comments:

  1. LOL - johnny you'll publish or forward anything won't you?

    Geez - anyone could make up a story like that.

    This puke said - " The real shame of this company is that, like all MLM's (I had not been involved in one before, but imagine they are all like this) is that they coach unsuspecting saps on how to rip off friends and family. "

    Ripoff?

    Unsuspecting?

    Ok - so you mean that a grown adult that goes through the entire process - ie: application, TOS, etc - is "unsuspecting?"

    Give me a break . . .

    Tuesday I dealt with various Medicare / Medicade persons during an insurance training - once we explained the "terms" to them - 90% understood - the other 10% we didn't attempt to write.

    John,

    Your crusade is valid - however, your methods are crap.

    You are kinda like the National Enquirer of travel. Pages and pages of bullchit, crap and rumors.

    Tom

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  2. Not so much about forwarding crap. I was contacted -- I did not seek this guy out.

    From what I have PERSONALLY witnessed, yes I believe this to be valid.

    Ripoff....119,000 (my estimate) RTAs in 2007 did not receive any money from YTB for their investment. 246,000 Reps did not receive any money. So yes, when you are promised the riches you are promised with YTB and it is not realized, I call it a ripoff.

    Unsuspecting. Well, when I attend a revival or two and the audience is stacked with YTB people, yes one can be unsuspecting. All of the promises are made verbally (how convenient) and the TOS and "application" are purposely vague. So yes, people are unsuspecting.

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  3. totally unsuspecting and tell us Tom....who WOULDN'T want to believe!!??!!

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  4. Given the very large number of rtas that are inactive with YTB, you'd be hard pressed to make the argument that this person's experience is uncommon. The majority of people who join any mlm don't make any money. YTB does not own that problem. Sorry! How many people do you know that have joined Mary Kay or YTB or some other mlm only to not make any money.
    Like it or not, John makes a legitimate argument. Travel is not something that you can just wake up and do with no experience and be successful at it. And that rule applies to any travel mlm, not just YTB. And there is a lot that YTB could do to be legit and respectable among the travel agent community, they have just chosen not to do it.
    Travel Temptress

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  5. "And there is a lot that YTB could do to be legit and respectable among the travel agent community, they have just chosen not to do it."

    Here you have one TTA saying it, I'm going to second it and I think John has been saying it all along. We see the possibilities here. YTB et al do provide an inexpensive entry into the industry (which is a good thing). But again, people are being sucked in without regard to motive or intentions. "Yale or jail." "Penn State or the State Pen." It's really a shame.

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  6. Another secret source...

    Our entire comp plan and all agreements are spelled out clearly and in writing John.

    Anyone attending a live presentation only need to inspect these materials, as thousands have before them, to make up their own mind.

    Like conventional travel, not all make money. If you approach it like a real business you have more success, amazing.

    RobertsResorts.Net

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  7. EAB--I know it is all out there for everyone to see. And it is not the clearest document on the face of the earth either. I am not saying that the documents were not accessible. I am saying that the story sold is exaggerated. Look at you---you have not made a penny yet you still crow on and on.

    The comp plan was not distributed at the Founder's Tour nor at the meeting I attended. You know what was there? The simple application and a parade of people that supposedly have hit it big in YTB (I missed you, apparently you are on the schedule for next year).

    There was all the interest in the world to sign me up NOW. I was told in 10 minutes my sites would be live. I was told I could book travel as soon as I got home. No one offered me a plan..just the scam talk about how so and so earned millions and you will too.

    They do stop short of making an income claim, but it is a slimy way of doing business--naturally that explains your attraction to the company.

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  8. Tom -

    this blog is about Travel MLMs - not your silly insurance endeavor - BTW, it's Medicaid (not Medicade - you know "aid"?). Do you even know the difference between M'Care and M'Caid?

    I doubt this is made up - it's just some guy telling his story and it's not all story - it's mostly opion and emotion. I'm fairly certain you can find hundreds who feel that way about YTB in particular and thousands who feel that way about their MLM experiences....

    CTA in MD

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  9. Sorry, John . . . this one does not pass the smell test. Too conveniently written.

    But you have accomplished your goal. As Doug has said recently, throw the negatives out there and some of it will stick whether there's truth to it or not.

    ReplyDelete
  10. Another sad story of a grown adult who is a quitter and then wants to blame someone for his inability to work.

    I got a great idea. How about we all take away freedom to choose. We can all go to work for John in the Travel Industry. He can decide what he wants to pay us. We will all be happy and never have the ability to choose what we want. We will all get a paycheck and no one will be hurt. What a world this would be!!!! It is called Socialism and then leads to Communism. Quitters and losers love this system because someone takes care of them. they cannot take care of themselves because they quit and have no work ethic. Then there are the Johns who would love to pamper the quitters and give them a paycheck for there so called work. Everyone would be so happy then!!!

    Hey John, try building someone up and do some positive. You must love misery and failure that is all you focus on.

    Yes I am anonymous, I do not want any of you crazy socialists showing up at my door telling me I cannot have Dream. i am a Director with YTB. I have no network marketing experience before YTB.
    I became a Director through old fashioned work. I also have helped many families change their financial future. They are extremely happy. This is the other side of the coin. The Tale of the Quitter and the Tale of the Worker.

    Dream and work for what you want or go to work for John because he has all the answers to help your family and their future.

    P.S. John I respect your opinion and your stance. Do me a favor, try putting something positive about what you and not something negative about YTB. Or you can just respond by calling me a Jack Ass.

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  11. Again, someone could not make it in their MLM/YTB or whatever, and instantly they are either a liar, or a quitter. However if they quit because they needed the money to pay the mortgage and didn't, they are an idiot. Which is it with you guys? Do you honestly think that EVERYONE in YTB makes money?

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  12. Travellisa,

    Do you honestly think that every Traditional Travel Agent makes money? Quitters exist in every industry including your world. How many people do you have working for you? If the answer is none, then you should be so proud for taking care of only yourself. That is a big dream and you say your so concerned for those poor people that fail at YTB. You will never have people fail around you because you never give them the opportunity. It is easy to ridicule in your small world.

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  13. What? I never said a TTA always makes money. And this isnt about me. Its about people that don't make it in MLM and tell about it..instantly they are liars or quitters. Who cares..its their business to quit..but they are outcasts it seems once this happens. I havent ridiculed anyone...its you people doing it to your own.

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  14. Travellisa-

    "Who cares..its their business to quit..but they are outcasts it seems once this happens."

    I do not ridicule people that do not make it. I also never called anyone a liar. This was posted on the website of a RTA who quit YTB. He is not an outcast. Stop putting words in my mouth. He did quit. He had a chance to either work hard or quit. He quit.

    I will not sit around and pamper someone for quitting. He may not be a quitter in life and i did not say that. He did quit YTB. (FACT) I do not pitty people that choose to not work. They have agency.

    ReplyDelete
  15. Proud..sorry it did not pass muster with you, but here is a news flash---it does not need to!

    Mr or Ms Anonymous Director. You speak with forked tongue. You talk about how you are helping people and suggesting that I try to build someone up for a change.... yet you open with this:
    Another sad story of a grown adult who is a quitter and then wants to blame someone for his inability to work.

    Way to build someone up. I do not deny that the person may not have put forth the effort you are putting forth. Likely they did not. But the system is designed to reward the top few and fail the bottom majority.

    In the TTA world, there are managers and agents. If they fail they do not work for an agency. But if they are working, they are being paid fairly. Not the case with YTB. Most make nothing! Most invest far more than they reap. The system is designed to fail.

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  16. Um, that's not socialism. Not even close. Socialism would consist up a group of workers all making the same wage, so it promotes equality. It also gives workers more control over production, although the industry is state owned. I think what you describe is a monoploy, where John owns the entire industry and makes up what we earn. Even the communism reference is wrong, b/c then everything is controlled by the government, not the industry.

    Sorry to get off track, back to discussion.

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  17. John,

    The MLM system is designed to help people succeed. People are designed to fail regardless of the industry.

    ReplyDelete
  18. I just want to say that I am proud to be a part of YTB. I just joined. My upline has made millions of dollars in this business, and anyone can do it. You get travel agent discounts right away, and you get to right off everything on your taxes.

    All you "wannabes" are just jealous of our success. You are scared of us. Look at how much we have hurt travelocity's business! We were voted as one of the top travel businesses by a major magazine. The whole magazine is even dedicated to YTB! Why? Because we rock!

    You don't have to be jealous... anyone can join us! The way I see it is that all of you old style travel agents have two choices... go out of business, or join YTB.

    It pisses me off at all the negative stuff that you guys make up. GET A LIFE!

    You owe it to yourself to take a good look at YTB. If you apply yourself a little, you might even be able to quit your j-o-b. I'm going tell my boss where to shove it here in about another month.

    All I do is invite people to our meetings, and the leaders do the work for me. What is not to like.

    So all you haters can go to hell. We'll be laughing all the way to the bank!!!!

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  19. The anon ex-RTA said, "They put fast talkers in front of a room full of poor dopes that are just looking for something, anything to get them out of their rut."

    It sure speaks volumes about what this person thinks of himself.

    Funny how John would have called this person a "rat" while they were in YTB. Now he uses him to further his propaganda. Does Dr. Goebbels come to mind?

    Hey John, since this "poor dope" is in a "rut", maybe you could give him a job in you travel agency? It appears bellyaching and spelling words incorrectly are some of his stronger attributes. I'm sure you would love to work with him. ;>)

    olescorekeeper

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  20. I was not directing that comment to you completely. It just seems each time we have an RTA thats tried the program and failed/quit, they are ridiculed for it, called liars etc. MAJORITY of the RTAs don't make any money, yet you want them to continually give up their $50 a month so someone else can make money..when that may be all they have that month? I don't understand this...so just because you "claim" to be raking in the dough, everyone should be?

    As for the other Anon above..I simply love this quote - "You don't have to be jealous... anyone can join us! The way I see it is that all of you old style travel agents have two choices... go out of business, or join YTB.".

    If you think that a company like YTB is going to put all other agencies under..your plain insane. You've been a travel agent (and I use that term loosely) for what?? how long?? that you so fully understand this business?. Online travel came out...they said we'd all be gone..well we're still here..because clients want customer service from people who actually have a clue about travel. When you get one..let me know! Not jealous of you...embarrassed maybe..definitely not jealous.

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  21. I do not feel sorry for people that sign up with YTB and don't make money.

    All they had to do was get people to come to a meeting or two. The business model then gets people to duplicate. Once you sign up a couple of people, your business will grow on it's own.

    And everyone that pay their money gets the travel agent discounts. So even if they do nothing with the business, they get to travel like an industry insider, getting major discounts on all their travel. So it's not like they walked away empty handed. Everyone wins.

    I have no problem hooking up my friends and family with this. Just one trip a year will pay for it, and then they will get to write off the trip on their taxes. I'm doing them a hugh favor!

    It is brilliant! You haters out there are all just to negative to realize that this is a good deal. Ten years from now you'll be wishing that you were with us. We will be retired, and you will still be slaving away.

    That guy that wrote you is a total looser!

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  22. You MLM people do not deserve to walk the earth. We are the supreme beings. Keep you splatter to yourself.

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  23. The word is LOSER! LOOSER is what you want to make a too tight tie.

    So, are you saying that to succeed in YTB all you need is to recruit and not sell any travel? And that is the key to this whole thing?

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  24. No, I think from that post the key was


    "And everyone that pay their money gets the travel agent discounts. So even if they do nothing with the business, they get to travel like an industry insider, getting major discounts on all their travel. So it's not like they walked away empty handed. Everyone wins."

    God I hope suppliers are reading this..seriously.

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  25. If you understand business, then you know that you need to have leverage to make big money. I focus on recruiting because then I have people working for me. People don't have to sell much travel because when you have a bunch of people, it adds up. Big time. And you make bonuses for recruiting.

    They reward leaders.

    So, when you guys are all working hard by yourself, I will have a lot of people working for me.

    That is the big picture. We get all the perks, and we work smart, not hard.

    YTB will turn out over 100 millionaires just this year alone. We are growing at over 200%. We are going world wide with this. I suggest that you jump on this now.

    If you show this to enough people, your business will grow on it's own. Systems work, people fail.

    Donald Trump even said that if he was broke, he'd go mlm right away.

    And the rich dad guy says that mlm is the way to go.

    So, stay in your little world if you want. I'm going after my dreams.

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  26. This was most likely written by John or Travellisa posing as an RTA. Nice try guys. This would work so well for you if it was a true post from a real RTA.

    "And everyone that pay their money gets the travel agent discounts. So even if they do nothing with the business, they get to travel like an industry insider, getting major discounts on all their travel. So it's not like they walked away empty handed. Everyone wins."

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  27. You have to eduacate your selves with the new school of travel. With ytb you can Travel and write off 100% of your Travel

    Barry Diller - Once stated that this is the Best Home Based Business of all time. Barry owns: Home Shopping Network, Ticketmaster.com, RealEstate.com, Reserve American, Lending Tree, Ask.com, Evite.com, Citysearch.com, Expedia.com, hotels.com, Hotwire.com and Tripadvisory.com… He is the “father of interactive commerce. And, he stated that this is the Best Home Based Business of all time.

    Are you keeping your business options open?

    How is your plan “B” going?

    It’s the Microsoft of the travel industry.

    1. The company is Publicly Traded

    2. They are 7 years new

    3. They will do a Billion dollars this year
    [In the Calendar year of 2007 they did 600 Million in travel]

    4. And no one knows about them.

    I just need 45 minutes of your time.

    A Home Based Business has incredible tax benefits too...

    There are several other locations available through out the areas and week. Please let me know if you need times and locations.

    Harvard Business School: “The Best opportunity of all time”.

    ReplyDelete
  28. John,

    Are you having fun posting as if you are an RTA? You will go to any lengths.

    ReplyDelete
  29. I do not post as Anon as I do not hide behind a fake name, nor do I have any inkling to even 'pretend' to be an RTA whos sheer purpose in life is to get travel benefits and tax write offs and do nothing to earn them. Thats your own kind making those remarks..don't blame us for that.

    ReplyDelete
  30. There are many ways to present this opportunity to you: Face-to-face, Travel Party or visit a link online so, lets first have you visit this link online www.paycationexperts.com ...
    This PowerPoint looking presentation is a bit "Dry" but the information is quite complete.... The presentation is approximately 25 min long so grab a beverage;) Take some notes and once finished you may call me or send an email so that I may answer any questions...

    Once your finished with the presentation ask yourself about OPTION A - When you Travel - Travel and pay full retail, earn no commission and pay someone else a commission, no tax benefits and no travel perks...
    - - OR - -
    OPTION B - Have your own online Travel Business (That competes with Expedia and Orbitz); so that when you Travel you earn commission from your vacations and vacations of your friends and family (Earn commission on all those who book through your Travel Business), incredible Tax Benefits and the perks that come from being a travel agent…

    Best Wishes

    Steve Sanchez
    (909) 730-2500

    PS. I can add you to my "Deals and Steals" email list?

    It is a weekly email that is generated from Resorts, Cruise Lines and the like. Once a week you will be updated regarding Vacation packages that have openings. Such as; - rather than a Cruise Lines setting sail with 70% occupancy the Cruise Line will offer its 30% vacancy to online travel agencies and this unique list.

    As much as 70% off the original ticket price…

    ReplyDelete
  31. TravelLisa said, "Online travel came out...they said we'd all be gone..well we're still here.."

    Well TL, it appears your future is not so bright this time around.

    The traditional travel agent growth rate is expected to increase a dismal 1% from 2006 to 2016.

    YTB is growing over 300%. Now with travel expected to double by the year 2010, who are those travelers going to book with? That's right, on-line agencies. 83% of travelers have gone to the internet to "click and order" their own travel.

    The following is from the US Department of Labor Statistics.

    Travel Agent Employment 2006
    101,000

    Projected Employment 2016
    102,000

    Change 2006 to 2016
    1,000 or 1%

    "Employment of travel agents is expected to increase by 1 percent, which is considered little or no growth."

    That's awful. It's no wonder with stat's like these jealously continues to loom it's ugly head.

    You will be around all right. You'll just be getting much less of the pie. As one of our YTB directors would say, "It's all good!.

    olescorekeeper

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  32. Yep. It's obvious someones pulling a stunt with a the cut and paste. One of you TTA's is stooping pretty low. Quit being a jackanapes and get a life.

    olescorekeeper

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  33. Hey! Olescorekeeper-

    Who's side are YOU on?!

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  34. You are on a blog all day, arguing about an mlm, and you are telling me to get a life?

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  35. That guy is truly the posterboy for all that YTB does NOT want to be known for. All hype and no substance. You YTBers should reign him in as he makes you all look really bad. He must be new cause he doesn't seem to know the 'new' rules for YTB agent discounts. And since I have his number I'm going to pass it on to my friend Robert in SB/SE IRS collections.

    ps my business is growing every year. Internet or no Internet.

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  36. Ole,

    Seriously come on, do you honestly think I'm worried about my job security. Nope.! I've been doing this for so long its second nature. My clients are not going to book online..most of them cannot...and the corporates aren't doing it either for customer service, reporting and other reasons.

    ARE YOU AWARE that most agents work on-line now? That we'd be part of that equasion anyway? Most GDS have on-line versions so we can all work from home too. I work at home everyday, I have 3 GDS systems loaded on my computer right now. The CWTs, Amexs and AAA are not going anywhere, YTB has a long way to go to catch up to the big boys selling TRAVEL, not websites..TRAVEL. And with RTA's like above..how they gonna do that if all they are interested in is booking their own travel, and maybe some friends..but joined cause you get the perks? And did anyone give that brainiac the info on actually having to sell $1500 of travel in order to actually get a card? Or that with Carnival you have to sell some cabins in order to get that perk? Yawn..

    Again, we've gotten off topic. This is about an RTA who tried it, and it didn't work for them...there are many more that it hasn't .. guess they were all losers/quitters?

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  37. To all of you MLMer's and YTBer's who say that the only people who don't make any money are the quiters and the people who don't work their business.....I will AGAIN refer you to the story of YTB Travelingman, as he himself relates it on the TW forums (http://twcrossroadsdiscussionforum.yuku.com/topic/9615).

    Been in YTB for 2 years, has made no money. Zip. Zero. Zilch. He has recruited and signed up 3 people in his downline. None of those 3 people have made any money. Zip. Zero. Zilch.

    By following the tales of his trials and tribulations on TW and Scam.com, we learn that he attends conventions in Orlando and St. Louis, takes training when available, and markets his business, yet in the two years he has been with YTB he has yet to make any money.

    According to all of you on the "inside" he is doing everything he is supposed to be doing, yet he is making no money. Why is that? He calls it "his failure", but I, and others like me with a clear mind, call it the failure of the company he is associated with, and the failure of the system he is involved in. This man is so brainwashed, that regardless of being given concrete evidence on certain things, he still BELIEVES. Sad, so sad, that every month this man loses money, yet the Tomer's get richer.

    There are those of you that tell us that we "just don't understand, if you would just go to a meeting...". Well, some of us have gone to your "revival" meetings, and they all seem to be the same. When what we have seen and heard is reported, the YTB response is "well, they're doing it wrong, I do my meetings the right way, and they're nothing like that". Fine, then. When we challenge you to put your money where your mouth is (so to speak) and prove it, and tell us where you hold your meetings so we can attend, you refuse to tell us. When the same type of meeting is seen and heard on multiple occasions, and a refusal is given to tell us where we can attend one of your "proper" meetings is held, then we can only believe that ALL meetings are the same as what has been witnessed.

    Until YTB, and all travel MLM's for that matter, can prove that they are about selling travel and not building the downline, us TTA's will be here to expose you. A good way for you to prove it (and yes, it is up to you to prove it, since you're the ones that keep proclaiming it) is for one of the loudmouths here (LB, Proud, EAB, the above anonymous director) to tell one or two of us when and where you will be holding your upcoming meetings, and let us chose which one we will attend, with no advance notice that we will be there. We want to see what your average meeting is, not one that you prepare specially for us. Of course, I know this will never happen, and for me to think it will I am living in a fantasy world (maybe the same one you reside in?).

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  38. If someone doesn't make it in YTB, the YTBers are vicious towards them! If it's such an easy program that anyone can do it, then why are there over 100,000 YTBers who are making no money at all?? Who was supposed to be training those people?
    I've said it before but I think it bears repeating... it takes a certain talent to be in an mlm and make money at it. When you go to a recruiting seminar or look at the stuff on-line, all you are doing is pushing the benefits and perks. It is because your recruiting message is so misleading that so many fail at it. You've got Tomer telling people you don't have to be smart. You've got you-tube videos and websites stating that it doesn't matter if you came from Yale or Jail. At some point you've got to stop whining and admit that maybe YTB isn't being very responsible with their recruiting message and THAT is why you have so many failures on your team. The success stories at YTB are in the minority!

    Travel Temptress

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  39. TravelLisa said...
    "Ole,
    Seriously come on, do you honestly think I'm worried about my job security. Nope.!"

    It appears to be on your mind since I didn't mention anything about job security in my post.

    Maybe you didn't read what I did say which was....
    "You will be around all right. You'll just be getting much less of the pie."I believe since you are a travel specialist, you will do just fine in the future.

    You say your clients are not going to book on-line because they "cannot". That's just fine. And you say you are part of the equation of working on-line. That's fine too. But I'm talking about the 83% that are "click and order" do it yourselfers. They don't need a travel agent and they prove it on a daily basis.

    From US Department of Labor Statistics: "The ease of Internet use and the ready availability of travel and airline websites that allow people to research and plan their own trips, make their own reservations, and purchase their own tickets will result in less demand for travel agents for routine travel arrangements."

    And this explains why your TTA business model will only grow 1% in 10 years when travel is expected to DOUBLE by 2010!

    olescorekeeper

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  40. "Another sad story of a grown adult who is a quitter and then wants to blame someone for his inability to work."

    Look at your attorney general websites. Tons of people who signed up and want their money back. Are they all quitters too? I don't think so. They realized they were swindled and want their money back. Amazing how it is spelled out in black and white and yet it is all a big conspiracy theory.

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  41. Anonymous said...
    "Look at your attorney general websites. Tons of people who signed up and want their money back."

    OK Anon, back it up. Give us the specific URL for the AG sites. No?..didn't think so.

    "They realized they were swindled and want their money back."

    Most complaints, and it's a lie there are "tons of them", are about wanting their money back, not about being swindled. You will find they exceeded the 5 day, right of recision, offered by YTB and they got mad about it. Would you want these types in your business? They don't play by the rules and therefore are losers.

    "Amazing how it is spelled out in black and white and yet it is all a big conspiracy theory."

    Yeah, and the ROR policy is spelled out in black and white too!

    Anon, could you be one of those losers?


    olescorekeeper

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  42. "And this explains why your TTA business model will only grow 1% in 10 years when travel is expected to DOUBLE by 2010!"

    How much is YTB going to grow? I think they ejaculated early:

    2005-2006: 16,500 to 38,000
    2006-2007: 38,000 to 106,000
    2007-2008 (so far): 106,000 to 135,000

    The last numbers I showed were 137,000 which is only up about 2,000 from the beginning of November. Weren't people signing up that many each day?

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  43. Are we assuming that no one ever drops out of YTB. I read somewhere that the average attrition rate for an MLM is at least 50% per year.

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  44. elemenohpee said...
    ....I think they ejaculated early:


    Yeah, and we all know what happens to premature ejaculators, don't we!

    They go flaccid and then are worthless.

    ReplyDelete
  45. John225: I suggest you stick to operating heavy machinery. You may indeed know something about that.

    ReplyDelete
  46. Aw, what's the matter LB? Hitting a little too close to home for you, and that's the best response you can come up with? Instead of making moronic comments, why not say something useful for once?

    ReplyDelete
  47. That's my point, Johnny . . . sounds like you have too much time on your hands. You now have time to peruse the various anti-MLM sites and come up with your recycled talking points.

    I gave you a reasoned example yesterday of why people are attracted to a home business . . . and particularly YTB. It had to do with the tax advantages of a home business. Very legitimate, very true. Not one comment back from you or the other YTB "experts".

    I'm sure you were off at the time on some other website getting your twice daily dose of anti-MLM rhetoric.

    ReplyDelete
  48. John:
    You should consider setting up a FAQ section for this blog (Frequently Answered Questions in this case).

    ReplyDelete
  49. Actually, LB, if you're speaking to me, you need to go back and re-read everything I posted yesterday. I did address what you stated, however I will address it again here.

    Yes, there are tax advantages to having a home based business, however, to take advantage of those advantages, you must meet certain criteria, and most people that belong to YTB, and even many home based TTA's such as myself, do not meet those criteria. The chances are, also, that when YTB is out doing their recruiting, they will talk about tax advantages, but won't mention the fact that you have to meet certain criteria, and most people do not.

    I can already hear your response in my head, "oh, but yes we do. We make sure that we tell the possible recruit everything", or something along those lines. Well, if you do, prove it. Yes, prove it. If you're going to say you do something, it's up to you back it up. Either put up or shut up. You won't, though. You're just like your brethern. You talk a good game, but when it comes right down to it, you can't back it up.

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  50. Johnny: Let's hear your criteria for tax savings. I'm sitting down. Teach me . . .

    ReplyDelete
  51. The tax laws for homebased businesses can be found on the IRS web page.

    ReplyDelete
  52. You are right, Eddie. I want to hear from the "expert" the criteria that most YTB RTAs do not meet.

    ReplyDelete
  53. Hey John, you just copied our YTB logo. There's a copyright on that. Yu might want to remove it before someone in HQ sees it and sues you!

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  54. So John, again, because it is ANTI-YTB, you see it as valid. Yet all that is PRO-YTB you see as invalid.

    Look at the trend folks! John is completely one sided in this, and it shows. Yah, he claims to be open-minded, but actions surely speal louder than words.

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  55. Proud--there is no pulling the wool over your eyes is there?

    MLMs and Travel: A Bad Mix....did you anticipate YTB Cheerleading site?

    I "claim" to be open minded--I am. Where have you shown your own open mindedness? Can you please demonstrate once where you listened to a point of view other than yours and considered it?

    I can wait....

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  56. Yes, I said speal... or is it spiel? John surely isn't speaking, so I couldn't type "speak".

    spiel (spēl, shpēl) Pronunciation Key
    n. A lengthy or extravagant speech or argument usually intended to persuade.

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  57. John, I have listened to your points. the ones that are factual, I have taken into consideration, but lately, you surely have been lacking luster when it comes to posting some facts. All you seem to find are opinion after opinion after opinion. When a pro-YTB fact is presented, you try to disclaim it... just as you just tried to disclaim that there is a "NO GUARANTEE of success" clause with YTB and it is CLEARLY STATED!!!

    Sorry John, but I am getting quite rather amused over this whole blog.

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  58. BTW...anonymous did make a great point. You might want to remove our logo from your blog. We can't even put the YTB logo on anything without having it cleared with HQ first.

    I thought it would be a nice gesture for me to warn you about it instead of contacting YTB HQ about it. Who knows... maybe anonymous already did.

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  59. I love this blog. If you don't like it Proud, then....but take that raving maniac Anon with you okay? He makes my stomach queasy. You know which Anon I mean, right?

    as far as the tax laws...a recruiting YTBer told me I could deduct a percentage of my mortgage because I would work from home. Uh, no. I can't. My pc here is not in a space dedicated to work only. It's not a 'home office' per se.

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  60. John, BTW... Just in case you keep it up, I did save this part of the webpage to my computer. Everytime it comes up, it will have the YTB logo on it. All I would have to do is e-mail it to HQ.

    Can you say... Blackmail???

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  61. Eddie, there are thousands of annonymous PPL here for al I know. Which one should I take?

    Oh, you're in the mortgage business! I'm so sorry to hear that. You must be a "broke-r" then.

    I find it funny that you were told this bt a YTB RTA. We always tell people to talk to their CPA to find out what they can and cannot deduct.

    Maybe you would like to disclose the name of the YTB RTA who told you this???

    Hmmm.... I didn't think so.

    BTW... I think my presence here bothers you a whole lot more than this blog could ever bother me. I think I'll stay. it's rather amusing.

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  62. If travel lisa would use a little more vagisil - she wouldn't be such a pain . . .

    Speaking of stupid . . .

    Geez!

    Tom

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  63. Proud, on December 13, in Columbia MD, Level 3 Director Don Bradley told a group of people that when you are in YTB you are in the travel business and you can deduct your cable television bill as long as you have The Travel Channel, your internet, your phone, all of your office supplies including school supplies (wink), and all of your vacations since you are now "in the business". Pretty much all BS. But I know that is not how YOU do your shows. But we will never know so we have to take your word on that.

    I am glad that you have the competence to capture a screen shot. Bill Gates would be proud I am sure!

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  64. I think the logo infringement is the least of John’s worries. What he has written about certain key people on this blog will never go away and goes far beyond opinion and just plain rudeness or name calling. I would suggest finding an attorney who deals with the rights and responsibilities of blogger's sites. Bloggers are not totally immune from certain responsibilities including liable and slanderous statements.

    olescorekeeper

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  65. Well, John, I have been told by a CPA what I can and can't deduct in my taxes, and I assure you that what Donn has said... isn't all BS.

    John here is just trying to spiel again towards the people who are just takig an interest in this blog, and are neither a TTA or a YTB RTA, or any other agent in the field of travel.

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  66. Hey I have never offered any tax advise to anyone. I am not qualified to do so. Maybe you or Don are but not me.

    According to my own accountant, some of what I have been told is not valid, but as you know, accounting can be very opinionated as well--your accountant and mine may not agree but what is important is that you trust your accountant and he or she will stand behind his advise in an audit.

    I did not even re-bring up the whole deduction thing beyond my post several weeks ago.

    I think it is a dangerous slope to tread offering tax advice even when you disclose it. But that is only my opinion.

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  67. Yes i do trust my accountant, thank you. He's been my accountant since long before I joined YTB. I haven't been audited yet.

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  68. BTW... I'm not here to offer tax advice... yes that's "advice" with a "c"... either.

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  69. You confused the 2 spellings John.

    You advise or you give advice. You don't advice or give advise.

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  70. LB, it isn't MY criteria, but that of the Internal Revenue Service. Here are the links one needs to be familiar with if they want to take any type of deductions for running a home based business. The first one is Publication 535, Business Expenses and the second one is Publication 587, Business Use of Your Home.

    http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p535.pdf

    http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p587.pdf

    As I said before, I would be willing to bet that 99.5% of people that belong to YTB do not meet these criteria, nor that YTB makes this information readily known to it's prospects.

    And I see Proud here is spouting off at the mouth again, but he still won't put his money where his mouth is, same as LB or any other YTB person that has their "revival" recruitment meetings.

    And Tom, with his ever so eloquent comment towards Lisa. Ah, the flatulance from Portal is never ending, isn't it? The mudslinging is so typical when there is nothing to say to the truth.

    I have also noticed that no one, not a single YTBer, has had the balls to refute anything I have had to say in the last 2 days, other than to point out two spelling errors, or to tell me to continue with my "heavy machinery" career, I've said it twice already, and I'll say it again, it must be pretty damn spot on. If it weren't we all know that they would be attacking like jackels.

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  71. John:

    Thanks for sharing your letter with us. Keep up the good work. Eventually the house-of-cards called YTB and all MLMs will get taken down.

    All you YTB sellers of websites, keep up the good work. You just confirm that you haven't a clue.

    Cruisinman, I'm not quite sure what your problem is, and honestly I could care less, but making rude comments when you don't know what else to say doesn't endear you to anyone. How sad.

    Cheers!

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  72. CM never has anything valid to say, thats why he continuously resorts to name calling, mud slinging etc. I won't be brought to his level. When he graduates from 1st grade and behaves more like an adult then a 6 year old..maybe then he can hold a conversation. And I hate to say that, because honestly my 7 year old behaves more like an adult then he does.

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  73. cruisin man~The comments about Lisa were rude and uncalled for and had nothing to do with the discussion. You need to either grow up or get some psychological help.

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  74. Johnny 225: (Not only are you a Big Man sitting on a piece of heavy equipment, you're an even BIGGER man sitting behind your desk at the keyboard . . . I'm really impressed with your ego)

    I have over 500 RTAs on my Team and the vast majority use a CPA firm when it comes tax time. Few go it alone. But, there are many CPAs that do not have a clue when it comes to home business tax deductions. So you have to search them out.

    A CPA that understands home businesses will help the average home business owner save at least a few thousand dollars a year on their taxes . . . $3000 to $5000 for an individual and $5000 to $7000 or more for a family. It happens all of the time. The key is showing pursuit of a profit and keeping proper documentation.

    Your 99.5% is ridiculous and shows your ignorance. The vast majority of my RTAs see significant tax savings with their YTB business. They show pursuit of a profit and keep proper records. And they happily pay their $49.95 per month.

    And, yes, I have the balls to tell you: Stick to the heavy equipment and throw your CPA cap away.

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  75. John225,

    We are already fully aware of the information in the links you provided, and yes, a lot of it we can tax deduct. Again, I am not a CPA, so I'm not going to give any tax advice. Go find a CPA to talk to. Then you will learn something.

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  76. Tom,
    How old are you? And you call yourself a professional after leaving a comment like that??
    Get back in your doublewide Tom.
    You're just plain trashy.

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  77. LB and Proud, once again I challenge you (though you will come up with some fantasy reason as to why you can't) to prove what you say. Put up or shut up. Your statements mean nothing without evidence to back them up.

    LB, I have never, ever said I had a "CPA cap". Matter of fact, I have stated many times that when it comes to this type of stuff, I am a bit clueless, and that is why I use both a bookkeeper and a CPA.

    I still find it amazing that you guys pick on the little things to try to draw attention away from the larger picture of what I have stated. Truth hurts, doesn't it fellows?

    LB---my ego? Why yes, I have an ego. All humans do. No, you shouldn't be impressed by mine, unless your's is so deflated that you're impressed by everyone's. At least I don't feel the need to belong to a group famous for telling me "how good I am" and "how I can never fail" etc. I don't need others to pump me up. My self respect and self esteem level are high enough to where I don't need constant infusions of the BELIEF.

    Now, since neither LB, Proud, Tom, or any other YTBer have anything of any substance to add to this discussion, I really am too busy for any more of this. You see, along with have a REAL life, I also sell travel, and have clients to work with, I'm done with this particular subject. After addressing the subject calmly, intelligently and rationally, and only getting responses such as the ones we've seen here, I'm done banging my head against the wall. There are just some people who's skulls are too thick to penetrate.

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  78. Bye John 225.

    BTW... Maybe you should know that banging your head against the wall could lead to brain damage... so stop doing it.

    My money is where my mouth is, and like I said John225...

    Go speak to a CPA. You may just learn something.

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  79. Proud to be YTB said...
    My money is where my mouth is....

    Ah, like a train wreck, I couldn't help myself but to look.

    Proud, your money is NOT where your mouth is. If it were, you would not be afraid to tell John, any other TTA that reads this board, or myself where you hold YOUR "revivals" so that we could attend one, incognito, and see what the difference between a "good" meeting and a "bad" meeting is. But of course, I'm sure it's against some FTC, SEC, or some other governmental 3 letter office (non existent) rules for you to tells us.

    And just some "edjumication" for you...."banging my head against the wall" is a metaphor for dealing with idiots like you. My brain is intact, thanks. Have you had a CT lately to check the status of yours? It seems like you need a new accountant, because it sounds like yours is taking you for a ride.

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  80. Her head is so far up her a$$ you better wear rubber gloves if her money is where her mouth is! :)

    No CTs for her, the proctologist is full up with other RTAs

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  81. Really? it's a metaphor? How many times did you actually bang your head against the wall before you figured that out? John225, the only idiot I see here is you. You know nothing about YTB, and yet you follow in Johnny's coat tails. Nope,, my CPA isn't taking me for any ride... and neither are the people at H&R Block. I think they know more about taxes that you ever will.

    I feel sorry for you. If you are a home based TA like you say you are, and you don't know what you can deduct... You may be paying too much in taxes. If you are a B&M TA, there's a lot of it you can't write off. To back this statement up, I quote what you said:

    LB, I have never, ever said I had a "CPA cap". Matter of fact, I have stated many times that when it comes to this type of stuff, I am a bit clueless, and that is why I use both a bookkeeper and a CPA.


    Like I said, maybe if you go talk to one, you will learn something.

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  82. Considering that I follow the IRS rules to a "T", yes I cannot deduct my home "office", for a variety of reasons. Doesn't bother me, because I'm not out to try and beat the system, any system.

    Trust me, I don't need you to feel sorry for me, because I sure as hell don't feel sorry for fools like you. I'm confident in the fact that my knowledge of many things far excedes yours, as evidenced by the level of postings here. I'm not ashamed to admit my ignorance when it comes to certain things. You need to learn to do the same, such as your ignorance as to how the travel industry really works.

    I see you STILL won't address the discrepencies in the type of YTB meetings out there. You know, the "bad, incorrectly run" meetings that several people have attended, and the "proper" meetings that you have. Must be because there truly is no difference in the way ANY meeting is run. You still won't address the fact that there are people out there in YTB land that, despite "working their business the way their supposed to" nothing is happening for them.....making no money. Why is it that you won't address these key issues? Why won't ANYONE in YTB address these issues? Why won't anyone in YTB, other than those at the very top, are making a living at it? Don't give us that old crap that it's against the law. There is no law anywhere against showing someone your W-2 or 1099, unless it is a YTB law. Why is it that no one in YTB can say how many people quit per month, but they can tell us how many join? Why is it that no one in YTB knows the difference between a dollar amount that is generated from "hosting outside agents" and a dollar amount from "sales from outside agents", when the two are obviously totally different? The list goes on and on, but I think you get the drift. Yes, I know nothing of YTB, and when I ask questions to try to figure the whole thing out, I can never get a straightforward answer, so if you want to talk about seeing an idiot, go take a look in your bathroom mirror.

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  83. Sorry, I was typing fast and furiously, so in the third paragraph of the above post, the 7th sentence should read: Why won't anyone in YTB, other than those at the very top, prove that they are making a living at it?

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  84. H&R Block....you ARE kidding right? The only requirement that is needed to work for them is the ability to turn on a computer and open the front door of the office.

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  85. I see you STILL won't address the discrepencies in the type of YTB meetings out there.

    I don't know every single YTB meeting that is out there, and I cannot speak for everyone who hosts them. I can speak for the ones I host, and the ones that people in my group host, and can honestly say that we do it the right way.

    Judging by what JF told me about the meeting he went to,I can tell it was done the wrong way... judging from what John described.

    As far as having a firm grasp on how the travel industry works, I have that. I didn't just set up a website and be d one. NO! I went out and got training! I'm not just talking about the CRTA. I'm talikng about the courses of CLIA, the courses the individual cruise-lines offer... Disney College, Disney University, etc. I've taken many, and as they arise, I am taking more and more.

    I am not at the top of YTB. I am only a director. Of course, you have absolutely no idea what a director in YTB is. All I am is a golrified RTA who built a team. That's all. I don't work in the HQ. I don't make the rules. I do, however... follow the rules.

    BTW, I am not just making a living from YTB. I bake far more than that.

    We answer what we can answer. You foolishly try to negate the answers we give, so what's the point? If you want to know the answers to some of the questions we don't have ourselves... give YTB HQ a call. I don't know the total commissions of everyone in YTB. I don't know how much travel each person is booking... or for what. I don't know who is dropping out of YTB (aside from those in my own downline). You are asking questions that are impossible for me, TravelPro, IbTravel or any other YTBer to answer.

    You don't know me, so don't even try to insult my intelligence.

    You also said this line:

    Yes, I know nothing of YTB

    So sit back, shut up and learn! Stop making judgement about something you know absolutely nothing about!!! Passing judgement like you are doing is nothing short of ignorance.

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  86. H&R Block....you ARE kidding right? The only requirement that is needed to work for them is the ability to turn on a computer and open the front door of the office

    Now theres a statement of ignorance!

    I personally know people who work for H&R Block, and the requirements do go a lot further than opening a door and turning a computer on... LOL! They actually had to take a course, and pass tests above a certain percentage to be able to work for H&R Block... or any tax peparation service.

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  87. john225 dude, your start'n to loose it! Relax..take another pain killer.

    olescorekeeper

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  88. Proud, then why won't YOU show us what a meeting should be? Why won't YOU show us that you're making a living being with YTB? YOU specifically are making claims, so it is up to YOU specifically to back them up. YOU specifically are being asked these questions because you're the one here, and by being here and being associated with YTB you are, for all intensive purposes, YTB. Liken it to a gate agent at the airport for an airline. That person isn't the head honchos, but they're the ones there representing the airline, so they are the ones that get asked the questions as the authority. You evidently DON'T know how the industry works, when you don't know that there are cruise lines out there that pay commissions in the 5 figures.

    I ask a question, and you (not specifically YOU) give answers that lead to other questions. Why should I just sit back? Asking questions is how one learns. Why should I have to call YTB HQ to get answers when you're here acting, for all intensive purposes, as a representitive of their company? If you don't know the answer, shouldn't it be an easy enough proposition for you to go into your "back office" and get the answer?

    Am I passing judgement? Probably, but we all pass judgements on things everyday with the information we have at hand, just like you do regarding TTA's and the TTA's that post on this blog. The minute you stop passing judgement will be the minute I stop. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

    Ole, what am I losing? I don't think the fact that I am asking honest, straightforward questions and expect honest, straightforward answers in return is indicitive of losing anything. Proud seems to be the one losing something, namely his temper, what with all his bold posts, exclamation points, and name calling. Usually when someone such as Proud, LB, Tom, et al, get as defensive as they are it's because the truth is hitting a little too close to home for comfort.

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  89. Dear Proud,
    I think a lot of us have offered to come to your meeting and check it out, but you have yet to post it.
    So, when and where is it?

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  90. Good idea. Can we do one of those internet things? If so. I'll be there too....

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  91. Here's the scoop folks. I don't have a single standard meeting place of my own. I do, however go frommeeting to meeeting to speak when called upon. Sometimes I'm in Orlando. Sometimes it's Tampa. At times I go to Clearwater, Daytona, Brandon, Bradenton, wherever... as a guest speaker. At those locations, I have taught other directors how to put on a meeting the way I do it. Actually, if you want to see a really good meeting... from the one who puts ona better one than I ever could, Go seek out Mike Arcadi. He's the one I model my presentations after. He too bounces around like I do.

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  92. Proud..so are you saying that we cannot see one of your meetings because you bounce around too much; but are suggesting someone else's meetings?

    See, for months now, you have been telling us that YOU run the correct meetings. Every other meeting I went to was not done correctly. When asked about YOUR meetings, you ignore the question and suggest attending someone else's meeting. Of course, when it it the same old crap, you will say---well that's not how I run my meetings.

    Be a man and just let me know when and where you are doing YOUR meeting and I am sure we can find someone to see it.

    As for Mike Arcadi...isn't he the guy that invented Dr. Bob Seligman?

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  93. And I have a tax question for those of you who are so savvy on this topic.

    Don't you have to start showing earnings after having been in a "business" for X amount of years? I know there are lots of very strict guidelines when it comes to your deductions. There is so much fraud out there and lack of knowledge because too many people listen to or take advice from another "Joe" when it comes to doing their taxes. I'll bet the IRS probably even has a team who scour the internet looking for people admitting how they do things.

    My main thinking in this post though was about the over a period of like 3 years, you do have to start showing a profit. Or do they treat YTB as a hobby??

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  94. Luanne--I think you need to be showing you are moving to a profit in three years, not necessarily showing a profit. But if the IRS classifies it as a hobby, the deductions likely would be disallowed.

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  95. I don't get mad or defensive with you john225 - either of the John's make any sense to listen to in the first place . . . LOL - Too funny . . .

    Tom

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  96. I am a TTA and for the longest time i've sat on the sidelines and just watched this mess. I don't really care what these rta's think. I've had personal communications with both John and John 225. Both are very experieced, very intelligent, respected members of the travel community. I applaud thier efforts to educate the public about the mlm industry. Most of the rta's are out there giving TTA's a bad name. Are all TTA'S perfect? No, Are all rta's horrible, NO.
    Can we PLEASE stop this playground atmosphere with the name calling and idiotic crude comments? I can no longer quietly sit and watch you try to destroy John and John225. They have my utmost respect.

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  97. John is right. (Wow, can't believe I said that.) You must show an intent to make a profit. For some businesses this could take much longer then 3 years. The more you can show you are seriously working your business, the better.

    1. Written business plan.
    2. Local business license.
    3. Incorporation, or other forms of formation.
    4. Communication services in the business name.
    5. Stationary and business cards.
    6. Media advertising.
    7. Other business expenditures.

    If your operating expenses are for some of the above, it's unlikely your operating a hobby business.
    These examples are neither all- inclusive or all-required for a particular business operation.

    olescorekeeper

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  98. Hey,,,only a coupla more and it's the first thread to reach 100 posts,,,

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  99. Well, it is actually a grace period of 3 years that one has to show profit in their business for it to continue to be recognized as a business. Otherwise... it is a hobby. This goes for ANY business... not just YTB and MLM.

    Since I have a substancial amount of profit, I don't have to worry about this law anymore. For me, it IS a business.

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  100. Proud--better ask your H&R Block people on that one. There are many companies that operate at a loss for years that are not considered hobbies. You are dead wrong again!

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  101. Proud, John is right on. (Oh..That's so hard to say. lol) Montgomery Wards for many years operated without showing a profit. They were able to substantiate there was an intent to make a profit year after year by certain business behaviors. The 3 year period allows you to get your business act together so to speak. However, if you can't show a profit after that, you may be allowed to continue beyond the first 3 years simply by proving your intent IS to make a profit as noted in my earlier post by the business behaviors listed.

    olescorekeeper

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  102. We're talking about the FIRST 3 yeears of a business John... not the decline of one... like Monkey Wards. Before their decline, they were highly profitable.

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  103. Proud.....GOTCHA! The patient spider lays in wait for the unsuspecting fly....

    So, you are now saying that YTB is a hobby? They turned their first profitable quarter EVER last year. When were they established? Oh yeah, 2001. Let me get my calculator....

    Seems they had huge losses for over 6 years. So,which of these is it Proud?

    a) They are in decline like Montgomery Ward

    b)They are operating as a hobby?

    c)Or you have no idea about that which you speak?


    A, B, or C ?

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  104. I hope somebody is going to go to the mall and get the straight dope on this from H&R Block...

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  105. Yale or jail. Penn State or state pen. It doesn’t matter what you do (as in for a living) or what you have done. It matters what happens here. We don’t look down on people. We want to help people be successful people. In YTB, you are in business for yourself, but not by yourself. You are on a team who wants to help you succeed. Because when you succeed, we succeed.

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