Over the weekend, someone sent me an email asking why I continually made mountains from molehills when a YTB RTA or Rep had made a mistake. I pondered that for a bit and realized that he is probably right--I am making mountains from molehills; but molehills can be just as dangerous.
A recent post discussed the way an RTA handled a transaction. She collected cash from the client, paid for the travel with her credit card, and circumvented the system to relieve YTB from their share of the commission due. The person who sent me the email indicated that it was ONE person that made ONE mistake. I don't think so. It was ONE person that was caught. I am not a professor of statistics or probability (but I do have a call into Dr. Seligman to help me) but what are the odds of me finding the ONE RTA that is doing this out of 140,000?
What are the odds of me finding the ONE Rep that is using a fictitious "doctor" to lend credence to the program?
What are the odds of me finding the ONE RTA that is unaware of the difference between sales and commission?
What are the odds of me finding that ONE recruiting meeting that was not up to YTB standards?
What are the odds of me hitting the power ball on Friday night?
The answer in all of these is "not too good". While many would like to believe that these are isolated instances, why is it that I am able to come across them so easily? The issue is not with ONE rogue RTA or Rep. The issue is with YTB enforcing it's own policies and programs and demanding compliance.
I believe YTB selectively enforces things. If it is good for recruiting (where the money is), is YTB willing to look the other way until it causes a problem like mlmbuzz.com. YouTube videos were all the rage until it was beginning to bring unwanted attention and then they were squashed.
As someone pointed out, YTB is perfectly able to see bookings that are entered under their number on the vendor side, but are not reported on the sale side. Why are these sales not questioned? I suggest one reason might be to actually allow for "wiggle room" in reporting sales numbers. Maybe it is not too bad to have a RTA claim that they make X dollars a year selling travel? I don't know.
I do know that any enforcement is sporadic at best and it appears that the higher up in the pyramid you are, the more immune you are to any ramifications.
So what is it? Is it just me..the luckiest guy in the world to find ten or twelve scofflaws? Or is there a problem?
John, I hope you are buying PowerBall tckets. The jackpot is getting quite high!
ReplyDeleteSo John...Using your reasoning, this means since hundreds of conventional travel agents committed fraud last year around the world, heavy to the USA, that
ReplyDeletethe more traditional Non "MLM" travel industry has a major problem.
If the incident you discribe actually happened you can bet YTB will make it good. This coverage
is not available (in most cases) to those misguided folks still using one of your dino-agents, is it John?
Earl Allen Boek
RobertsResorts.Net
John,
ReplyDeleteLet me point out to you that this woman "Rose" claims that she did this. Is it supposed to be accepted as factual because it is possibly something that you can spin against YTB? Personally, I don't know this person, so I really don't know if it really happened or not.
If it did happen, what sort of identification did she give to the supplier to let them know she was an agent and not just another client? If she gave them YTB's ARC#, then the commission would have gone to YTB... where she would have had to file a commission claim form to receive her 60%. You say that she explained. There's a whole lot that she didn't explain.
Holy cow already. The woman posted it herself on TW. I would assume she wouldn't lie about scamming the agency, she probably had no clue she was doing anything wrong, her words being "new to the industry". Thats the problem. You have people doing things like this because "they do not know what they are doing, and have no idea that its wrong". If you don't believe her Email her, she put her info out there proud..ask her what she did. Why is it when a person claims they screwed up or quit or whatever..they are instanting lying? I don't get that. Do you honestly think us "dinosaurs" go on all these blogs pretending to be YTB agents claiming we screwed up to make you people look bad? I'm really trying to understand the logic.
ReplyDelete"Do you honestly think us "dinosaurs" go on all these blogs pretending to be YTB agents claiming we screwed up to make you people look bad?"
ReplyDeleteHmmm.... so crazy, it just might work!
Proud,
ReplyDeleteLet me show you how easy this can be done - by any agent at any agency (but there are usually clauses in contracts that should prevent it).
Let's use Rose as the agent and Pat as the client, Pat wants to take a cruise.
1. Pat contacts Rose to price the cruise, Rose gives pat a price of $1000 (commission is included in that price of $100, keeping round numbers for ease of math)
2. Pat agrees to this price, gives Rose cash or a personal check for $1000.
3. Rose deposits money in her account.
4. Rose uses her own credit card, calls cruise line, identifies herself as a YTB agent and makes a booking for Pat and makes a net payment of $900.
5. Rose now has $100 in her account. There is no need to file a commission request with YTB, since she has the money already - and she has 100% commission.
Proud said: "If she gave them YTB's ARC#, then the commission would have gone to YTB... where she would have had to file a commission claim form to receive her 60%. You say that she explained. There's a whole lot that she didn't explain."
ReplyDeleteShe said that she paid the supplier the net fare from her own credit card, and had the client pay her the gross fare. Since the supplier received only the net fare, there was no commission due to YTB, so nothing to split. She got 100% by having the client pay her and then paying the supplier the net, pocketing the difference.
First off, clients are dumb to pay the travel agent directly. In most, if not all cases, the TA should just take the client credit card and process the payment with the supplier. This protects both the client and TA. This is true whether it is YTB or "dino-agent".
Second, what she did is illegal in many states if she did not use an escrow account. Since I am not familiar with the laws in Michigan (where she claims to be from), I can't say for sure that it is illegal there.
Third, it clearly violates YTB's agreement (as pointed out in the other thread).
If she used another number that she has for herself, then it is, or should not, be an issue for YTB, as independent contractors can have more than one host (per IRS guidelines). It may still be a violation of state laws. However, if she has her own number, why in the world would she also join YTB?
TravelLisa said, "Do you honestly think us "dinosaurs" go on all these blogs pretending to be YTB agents claiming we screwed up to make you people look bad?"
ReplyDeleteIt certainly is in the realm of possibilities, isn't it?
1. She booked a trip for someone else using her own credit card.
ReplyDeleteThis is nothing new, and it is not a YTB or even a travel industry issue. This is a credit card issue as everyday (non-agent) people do it all the time because their cards offer points or sky-miles. The only way to resolve this is for the credit card companies to retract the earnings system. We know they won't do that, because it promotes the use of their credit card.
2. Writing it off as a business expense?
She can't. Although the cruise was booked on her credit card, she wasn't the one going on the cruise. She doesn't have d ocumentation stating that she was a passenger.
3. Defrauding YTB?
Because she called the supplier herself, and booked it directly and didn't submit a commission claim form to YTB, she didn't defraud YTB. Now, if she did this, and then submitted a commission claim form, then she would have been defrauding YTB, because she would then be "double-dipping".
The only person it afects is the client. When the transaction is done, the client should have received a receipt along with her itinerary. Wouldn't the credit card transaction be on the receipt? Wouldn't the client see that the cruise cost only $900 and not $1000? For agreeing to this, the client really is also at fault here. Whether YTB or traditional, a client should always pay attention and watch as a transaction is being performed to be sure that the trip is really being booked... and booked at the right price.
Proud said, "3. Defrauding YTB?
ReplyDeleteBecause she called the supplier herself, and booked it directly and didn't submit a commission claim form to YTB, she didn't defraud YTB. Now, if she did this, and then submitted a commission claim form, then she would have been defrauding YTB, because she would then be "double-dipping"."
Yes, she did defraud YTB, because she cut YTB out of its 40%. YTB claims that as its share for allowing agents to use its identification numbers.
Proud--using your personal credit card to purchase something on someone else's behalf is acceptable. Using a corporate credit card is not. It is in ALL corporate credit card terms of service.
ReplyDeleteThe way YTB encourages everyone to write off business expenses without thinking about it--writing this off is very possibly what has happened. At the end of the year, you do not need to submit trip docs- You just put in an amount. And just taking an educated guess, I am saying that she likely has or will deduct the cost of this trip as a business expense.
Yes she defrauded YTB. If you are making $10 an hour from your employer and decide to take $10 from the till and not worry aboput taxes--you are defrauding your employer. According to YTB they are entitled to 40% or maybe 30% of the commission. She took it all without their permission. That is fraud!
Steve;
ReplyDeleteVery well said, and I agree with you. (Both posts)
The problem I have with the subject of the original post is that additional comments were added that Rose could also be defrauding the IRS, defrauding Credit Card companies, defrauding the Client, and defrauding suppliers all with one action choosing to bypass YTB’s cut on the commission.
That’s what I call making a mountain out of a molehill.
I have agreed that there are RTA’s who do not follow the rules. John admitted publically that he had an employee who did the exact same direct commission with his agency, which in turn prevented John a higher level of commission based on the volume his Agency does.
Yet does he boast about Credit Card Fraud or tax evasion? No.
That’s my issue. Neither statement has anything to do with the topic of the post. I believe John refers to this as “exaggerated claims”.
I have no problem with John pointing out and bringing to light issues like Rose. He’s doing us a favor by letting everyone know what’s right and what’s wrong. I commend him for that.
Just don’t exaggerate or make claims unrelated to the topic at hand.
OLE
ReplyDeletePossible but doubtful, you'll notice that the TTA's or dinosaurs as we are called, do not post under Anon we actually use names. It seems the ones that like to attack the most are the ones who refuse to register or use a name.
I for one do not think any TTA would stoop as to that level to "pretend" to be a YTB person to make someone look stupid, they do that all on their own.
As for those who are defending what Rose did or questioning it..if she was part of your "group" would you not be pissed that shes cutting you out of the equasion. What if others red the post and decide to do the same...that'd be your dollars out of your pockets..thats ok?
John, I have a business credit card, but the business desn't pay for it. I do. Whatever I charge on it, I pay... eventhough it does have my travel business name on it.
ReplyDeleteIf she charged it, and then YTB paid the balance, then there would be an issue.
Eventhough she did charge it on her business card, she still cannot claim it as a business expense. She will need to provide documentation of proof (like a receipt or in her case, a travel itinerary... which doesn't have her name on it as being the traveler). I don't think she will even take a chance on trying for fear she may get audited.
Every single receipt that pertains to a business expense, I file away month by month, and I also write down all my expenses into a notebook, so if by chance I do get audited... I have all my verification ready at the drop of a hat.
Lisa,
ReplyDeleteMost YTB RTAs won't do it the way Rose did it. Because she doesn't heve a file on the sale backed up by YTB, it would be quite difficult to prove as a business transaction should she be audited. also, if the final payment isn't made and the client doesn't get on the cruise... YTB has absolutely no documentation of the transaction. This puts the agent at risk, because now the client can go after the agent.
One more point lisa, You refer that only YTBers post as anonymous because they name call. You just did it yourself by calling us stupid.
Calling the kettle black...
Let's talk about non-compete contracts - which, while this is not actually a non-compete clause in the YTB contract, has some similarities.
ReplyDeleteThe woman has used YTB's "intellectual property" to get the appropriate phone numbers, etc. in order to do a direct booking for her "client". She used YTB's resources and then cut them out of the loop by booking direct. That is certainly a violation.
I actually would be siding with YTB on this one and it looks as though they are cutting the woman out because of this behavior.
Proud---it is not about who pays the bill. If it is a corporate card it has different terms and conditions. One of them is that the card is to be used only for BUSINESS expenses. Sure you can run some personal stuff through there--everyone does, but using it to purchase a client's trip is illegal and against the terms.
ReplyDeleteJohn,
ReplyDeleteBTW... YTB does not issue corporate credit cards. What YTb does issue... or sell (as an option) is a paycard... which works just like any debit card from any bank.
The credit card companies saw that I have my own business, and issued me a card. She probably has the same thing.
Now, a true corporate credit card is one that is not only issued to you, but is also monitored by the corporation you work for.
As far as the creit card goes, this is to be taken up with the credit card company. To them, it's just another transaction. Where it comes back to haunt you is when you try to claim it as a business expense at the end of the year. John, there's nothing you can teach me about credit cards that I already know.
I am not condoning what she did, so don't get me wrong here. Personally, I'd rather do things by the books so that it is backed by YTB should any problems arise.
Proud, I wasn't calling you stupid..but I have run across many YTB/MLM supposed "agents" that I'm sorry...are.! And those that post as Anon's on this board simply to name call and not interject anything useful or knowledgeable. Not just on this blog, but in person, on other sites etc. MAJORITY of the ones I've come across haven't a clue about the industry at all, but profess to be agents. When one has no idea that "AAA or Amex" have travel agencies, you should not be in this industry.
ReplyDeleteNow...if you took it personally, I'm sorry to hear that. Believe me, If I was calling a specific person stupid..I'd say it...I don't hold back. What Rose did was stupid, but is it her fault..probably not, because she was probably not trained before handed over her website and travel creds. When she gets sued, will YTB be there to back her up because she didn't know any better, because she has nobody policing what she is doing? I know for a fact if my boss saw an agent in our office doing this, they'd be fired on the spot. Inhouse or IC..no matter. Stealing is stealing.
Things that make you go hmmm! JWF says he spotted scafflaws. I always thought thought they were faux pas? Tom, that is "too funny!"
ReplyDeleteTrue Lisa, and like I said, I am not condoning what Rose did. If she is sued, then YTB will not back her up, because YTB has absolutely no documentatin of the sale. Guidelines are set for a reason. If she keeps doing what she s doing, it will eventually catch up with her.
ReplyDeletelisa is probably the "stupidest" of them all for thinking she actually knows what the hell she is talking about.
ReplyDeleteBetween lisa and vacation agent on TW forum - I think they have "stupid" pretty much covered.
Using her credit card was not fraud. However - if she was representing ytb at the time of the sale - the bypass was fraud.
ytb, coach or the other execs at ytb know they cannot restrict anyone from doing travel sales via a 3rd party. However - if representing ytb during the sale - then it must be handled ytb's way.
You folks truly do make a mountain from a mole hill . . .
LOL - Too funny . . .
Tom
Proud--you are a freaking idiot. He was not talking about a YTB credit card. Dumbass there are different rules for COMPANIES than individuals.
ReplyDeleteIf you are using a COMPAZNY credit card you need to use it for COMPANYU excpenses.
Why are you so freaking dense that you cannot understand the simplest things. Please do us all a favor and go on a reduced rate cruise again or make up some bogus numbers because whren you try to argue anythign at all you just loiok like a dumbass
Proud--it is not just another transaction to a credit card company. For instance, assets of a company (if structured correctly) are untouchable in terms of personal use. So, if I bought a cocaine white bentley on a credit card issued to my company it should be company property. Not personal property. Money in a corp account is not garnishable or lienable for personal debts.
ReplyDeleteIf you have a corporate card issued in the name of your company (LLC or S or C Corp) read the cardmember agreement and you will see.
IF anyone is going to sue her it likely woudl be YTB so of course they are not going to back her up. But her credit card company could do any number of things--revoke any points she may have accumulated, cancel the card, backcharge the charge, file suit, or if it is a credit card (versus a charge card) possibly call the entire thing due.
Tom---using a corporate card in that manner is fraud. Check it out and get back to us. BTW checked out USA Today--nothing of interest today. 4 more days to go!
uh - john - if it's "her" corporate credit card and travel is her business - it's legit. Who said it was a corporate credit card anyway?
ReplyDeleteAlso - I said in "the next week or so" - it could be 3 or 4 weeks - I don't know . . .
Mountain out of a mole hill . . .
LOL - Too funny!
Tom
Tom--if it was for HER travel you are correct. But if it is purchasing someone elses (not an employee) travel, it is fraud. You are 1000% wrong on this one. She said it was "her" corporate credit card.
ReplyDeleteYou said in the next week and to watch USA Today. I am. You also said the stock would bump in the next week and that wise players (coach and scott) could make a million in an hour.
Their stock is steady and will bump up with the next one I would imagine.
On a certain day in February - wise players could make a million in one hour on the up - get ready.
Press release is powerful . . .
Tom
ANd on February 6th you said
Have been a rep since 2001 - just not active. Not an RTA.
My IATAN card is through my host I've been with since 1996.
My CLIA card is through my own company.
Tom
p.s. - Pick up a USA Today over the next week or so. HUGE development . . .
So, I am keeping my eyes peeled on USA Today!
God I love it when you come forward with insider knowledge!
LMAO I'm the stupidest of them all? Whys that Tom.? Why do you always feel the need to attack and call me names? Have I wronged you in another life..or is it that you just don't have anything better to say or do.
ReplyDeleteWhen you graduate from the 1st grade let me know. I'll send you an e-card.
johnny - a corporate card doesn't mean it was issued to an "employee" - she could have her own business with a "corporate" credit card - I do.
ReplyDeleteI never noticed where she said her corporate card - enlighten me. Did she say it was her "corporate card" belonging to a company she works for or for a company she owns.
You sure love to throw around the word "fraud" - show me where she frauded someone other than ytb?
Tom
p.s. - lisa, you and vacation agent just always run your mouth about things you have no knowledge of. I haven't once notice you post anything original - just always a parrot to the other old hens.
Proud said: "Most YTB RTAs won't do it the way Rose did it."
ReplyDeleteI doubt that most YTB RTA's have sufficient travel knowledge to even think about the possibility of doing what Rose claims to have done.
Tom, which part of her post (below) don't your comprehend?
ReplyDeleteI did not violate anything, took the net rate (charged it to my Company CC) and invoiced my client the full rate, they wrote me a check and there you go....100% commission. (FYI... I was paid prior to charging the trip). So I am in compliance, wouldn't you agree?
I assume she is a one person company and my introduction of the word employee was merely to say that if she purchased a FAM on her corporate card for an employee--that would be fine. Purchasing trips for customers is not and it is fraud. Call up your credit card company and ask the following, "I run a travel business. If a client pays me in cash or check, is it ok for me to charge their vacation/trip/cruise on my corporate credit card?"
I will wait for you to come back with the answer for me Tom!
p.s. - lisa, you and vacation agent just always run your mouth about things you have no knowledge of. I haven't once notice you post anything original - just always a parrot to the other old hens.
ReplyDeleteI think the old hens know more about the travel biz than the old goat.
"I will wait for you to come back with the answer for me Tom!"
ReplyDeleteJohn you know better than that! Looking for a answer from one of these guys. HAH! I don't think anyone of us will be around by then. Getting any answer from anyone even remotely associated with YTB is about impossible.
john -
ReplyDeleteThanks for clarifying the card - but, it still could be her card - and that is ok from my understanding.
In our travel business - we take payments via check / cash and pay for the purchase using our Amex as a convenience for the client. Not once in 10 years has this been an issue. Albeit - it rarely happens.
Guess we'll never know what type of card rose used . . .
Either way - as long as the bill is paid - it wouldn't be fraud.
Tom
So Amex said that was an acceptable use of the card?
ReplyDeleteIf you say yes, that is a complete lie!
Oh Tom grow the hell up already will ya. Your the first person to come in here and name call when you have nothing useful to say. I come and state opinions on what I see in this business everday, that makes me stupid?. Whatever. At least I'm actively in this business, what is it exactly that you do? Oh right you owned a multi-million dollar travel business...when was this..what was its name, I'd love to google it and find out how wrong I am and bow to Tom Coleman, king of all things travel related.
ReplyDelete:) Now that would be Too funny !
I did not violate anything, took the net rate (charged it to my Company CC)...
ReplyDeleteAh! She said "Cmpany credit card" NOT CORPORATE!!! There's a huge difference there John. She could have 2 credit cards. 1 she uses mainly for her business, but could also charge personal purchases on it as well.
Proud said: "Most YTB RTAs won't do it the way Rose did it."
I doubt that most YTB RTA's have sufficient travel knowledge to even think about the possibility of doing what Rose claims to have done.
No, I just wouldn't go about doing something like that. I see that some TAs could go about doing it if they wanted to... by the following statement...
In our travel business - we take payments via check / cash and pay for the purchase using our Amex as a convenience for the client. Not once in 10 years has this been an issue. Albeit - it rarely happens.
Sorry cruisin_man. I know you're on YTB's side, but you made the statement. I believe you to be an honest person and am I'm not saying that you do what Rose ilegidly did, but that I know that the temptation is definately there... even for traditional travel agents.