In their daily (it seems) press release on February 5, 2008, YTB once again clouded any real numbers that might be released to the public.
(Please see correction at bottom)
YTB International, Inc. (Pink Sheets: YTBLA) ("YTB" or the "Company"), a leading international provider of Internet-based travel websites and home-based independent representatives, today announced that it ended 2007 with more than 130,000 RTAs, compared to 8,870 in the first quarter of 2005. The Company paid its Reps and RTAs more than $65 million in combined marketing and travel commissions through the third quarter of 2007.What we have here is apples and oranges. The "sales force" is RTAs--those that sell travel. Yet the commission reported is combined for the Reps and the RTAs.
Something smells here. According to the YTB report I received at the Founder's Tour, YTB paid out $90,666,140 in marketing commissions ALONE for the full year. Assuming (I know you hate when I do that) each quarter was equal, that would equal a payout of marketing commissions of $67,999,605 for the first three quarters--for the Reps alone. This does not include travel.
Now, the release does indeed say more than $65 million, but if it was more than $70 million you better believe it would have said that.
So, is YTB saying that the RTAs earned nothing and actually owed the company $3 million? I really do not understand. Why talk about the travel people and then include the opportunity people in the payout? It really makes it hard to figure out. Oops, I may have answered my own question.
Since there are two separate businesses, why can't we see a press release saying that there were 305,000 reps who earned a total of $90 million dollars and a total of 140,000 RTAs that earned a total of $12 million dollars. It eliminates the smoke and mirrors and would make it so much more clear. Scratch that--another questioned answered!
Do I see a restatement in their future, yet again?
CORRECTION: I pulled some incorrect numbers from the SEC filing and it does appear that YTB did in fact pay just over $65M in commissions out for the first 9 months of the year. The numbers I pulled were gross commissions received as was pointed out in a comment. However, it still does not explain why commissions were lumped together and not separate yet there was no differentiation of the Rep earnings versus the RTA earnings. It also does not address why the numbers that were presented at the Founders Tour are so vastly different.
It is 922pm EST and this has been up for a few hours I guess. There have been several comments on other posts, so I know it is visible.
ReplyDeleteHere is a prediction. Not many comments on this one from the YTB crowd because this is one of those posts where there really is no way to spin it to make sense.
Sure some name calling and so forth, but I predict nothing reasonable in terms of a response.
Hey...I'm still waiting for the report on Piccolo and Seligman...
ReplyDeleteperhaps they're just bored with ya?
ReplyDeleteTom
Wow Captain Misinformation shows his face once again, and has no answers. John, you were right on the money.
ReplyDeleteJohn,
ReplyDeleteYTB is a publicly traded Company, we are not at liberty to make assumptions when talking about earnings to the public. What we release to the public needs to be documented.
Here is Report of what was earned through the Third Quarter of 2007.
Once the Annual Report comes out, (which will be audited by our accounting firm before being released via the SEC) I’m sure we’ll boast about what was made by all 130,000 RTA’s and Reps, but until everyone has access to this information, (not just the thousands who made the Founders Tour) it should not and can not be released by the company.
I realize THIS is only a blog and someone’s opinion about what they think about MLM and YTB in general, but being a Journalist yourself, I would think you would find value in not only documenting but being accurate in what’s being released.
I would like to point out as well, based on the information you provided, your “assumption” that all quarters are equal is incorrect. (Only $55 Million paid out to Reps alone.) Q4 was actually pretty strong, wasn’t it? (I honestly don’t know…I don’t have access to the document you are referring to.)
What about your assumption that YTB is slowing down? Do you think your Blog is working?
What is it that they say about people who ass-u-me? Stick with the facts John, and only the facts.
PS to Iontop: I’m trying to find any type of actual documentation right now on Piccolo without much success. All I’ve been able to find are people saying he’s “The One Man Internet Crime Wave”. (I can’t even find documentation of the bankruptcy everyone’s jumped on board with.)
I am also listening to the call from Silegman. I’ve had far better success documenting the content of information on this call, once you work past the personal credentials. Seems to be very accurate information thus far, which is probably why so much attention seems to be centered towards discrediting the person.
"If you must hate - hate the game and not the players"
Doug--are you saying that the numbers presented in the release based on the SEC filings are correct? IF so, what was the intent of releasing a different set of numbers to the "thousands" that attended the Founders Tour?
ReplyDeleteNo matter how you slice the quarters, the numbers do not jive. Even the earning report YOU cited do not jive with the press release numbers. The SEC filing says $82.96 Million for the first 9 months.
So, for the same period, we now have THREE sets of numbers. An SEC filing of "over $80 million" a press release over "over $65 million" and an internal document showing marketing commissions ALONE of "over $65 million". So again, I ask which number is it? Why is it so hard for anyone at YTB--Rep, RTA, or HQ to talk in cold hard facts? This should not be a tough question. It really shouldn't.
If your own ass-um-tion is correct that numbers should not be released to the public without proper auditing, please let your CEO know about that. He had no problem distributing the sheet and discussing it. And as I said I was shocked at the numbers of people at the founders tour. So I imagine once that was said and done, those numbers were exposed to close to 50,000.
I made no assumptions in this post about YTB slowing down. Although eventually you will run out of people to buy into the ruse.
You made an interesting comment on Seligman--once you got past all the credentials, the phone call was accurate. The point is that his credentials appear to be fabricated and propagated by YTB. Do you not see this as an issue. That is like saying that I and this blog fully endorse and support YTB and MLM in the travel business is fine and dandy and truthful as long as what you say later is truthful. Come on!
The more I think of it, I wonder if that whole call was not recorded by two directors just to increase the downline.
As Tom would say "LOL too funny"....Jon you were spot on on this one. Looks like a big old oops from YTB. CAUGHT!
ReplyDeleteGoodo job
John--nice reply to travelpro...and nice prediction in your first comment. Once I called out a YTBer for saying the downline and customers were "prey to feed on" the thread was dead.
ReplyDeleteTravelpro-- saying "once you get past all the credentials" is like saying he's honest once you get past all his bullsh**. ?! Why are you even looking on the internet for information on these guys? We can all do that. Isn't your upline there for help and support? I thought you would be able to go right to the top, if necessary, to find the answer. Someone posted here that they had Coach's phone number.
And assumptions about earnings CAN be released to the public...at least if they're true. You can't lie to the public and you can't divulge information to only a select few who use that information for personal gain (that's insider trading).
Good Job?
ReplyDeleteI pointed out very clearly where the ONE set of numbers came from concerning the press release.
“The Company paid its Reps and RTAs more than $65 million in combined marketing and travel commissions through the third quarter of 2007”
Now look at the SEC filing I provided.
The two line items are under “Total Net Revenues Operating Expenses”.
Marketing Commissions paid to Reps $55.4 Million
Travel Commissions paid to RTA’s $9.4 Million
John’s lumped TOTAL expenses which would INCLUDE line items of depreciation, administrative, and marketing? Are those numbers also paid the Reps and RTA’s?
That’s not our “oops”, its John’s, and you want to tell him he’s doing a good job?
That’s not funny, it’s sad.
And you wonder why YTB keeps telling him that “you don’t understand” while he keeps telling us “the numbers don’t jive”.
In regards to the call that has so many of you up in arms, if you want to believe the information on that call is BS, that’s your right, and I’m going to let you have that.
I’m having a hard enough time helping any of you look at core numbers and facts, so there is little hope in helping any of you in a value of a call.
I'm done for today. I have family I want to spend time with.
Typical. Point to ONE set of numbers...what about the numbers Scott Tomer handed out? How does all that "jive"?
ReplyDeleteIt's like saying the Seligman call was truthful except for all the lies. It doesn't have me "up in arms" and it doesn't surprise me that you're giving up because you can't find out the truth about anything from your upline or YTB. John called it when he said "Here is a prediction..."
Excellent job, John.
1. YTB uses numbers that are filed with the SEC.
ReplyDelete3. John has some document that nobody can verify to add confusion.
4. TravelPro answers a question and backs it up with documentation from the SEC.
5. John adds yet another set of numbers into the mix to add confusion.
6. TravelPro points out that third set of numbers John is using is wrong, and kicks it out being related to administrative and depreciation.
7. Iontop says, “Excellent job John”?
8. Anonymous adds, WTF?
iontop said...
ReplyDelete"Typical. Point to ONE set of numbers...what about the numbers Scott Tomer handed out? How does all that "jive"?"
I honestly couldn't anwser that, I don't have access to the numbers Scott Tomer handed out.
I'll see if I can get a copy.
Right now however, we can't even agree on what "jives" between what's reported in the Press Release and what's reported in the SEC filings.
Until we agree that you and John understand one set of numbers, there is no reason to even move forward with your question concerning another set is there?
Look, there should only be one set of numbers...or at least one for marketing websites, magazine sales, etc. and one for selling travel. They shouldn't be separated sometimes and then mixed together at other times to make the travel sales look better. You HAVE to agree that WOULD make it easier to understand.
ReplyDeleteAnd regarding the numbers John has from the Tomer handout, I don't have them either but I seriously doubt John is just making them up...if anyone is adding to the confusion, it's YTB...and maybe that's not by accident.
ReplyDeleteI would have to respectfully disagree.
ReplyDeleteThe Press Release by YTB only specified one set of numbers. Documented by an SEC filing everyone has access too, and everyone can look at. John is the one who clouded the issue with numbers that only he has access too.
Furthermore, the SEC numbers clearly break down the amount of Marketing Commissions paid, and the amount of Travel Commissions paid. Very clear numbers that are broken down as line items for easy access and understanding. Its basic accounting that any adult “should” be able to decipher.
For the record, I would agree that I don’t think John is making these numbers up. I am however concerned with his interpretation of the numbers. He did add administrative, depreciation, and marketing line item expenses into the SEC numbers to give us a number of $86 million that was to be paid to Reps and RTA’s.
We will have to wait for him to answer to see if he realizes his error when looking at the Tomer numbers.
Fair enough...I'll wait.
ReplyDeleteGo spend time with your family...my wife is getting suspicious of who I keep writing to. lol
And just for the record...I don't have any issue with the amount of money YTB does or does not make...or whatever the numbers actually are. The issue is the generous helping of BS that goes along with everything...
ReplyDeleteI do see that I pulled the gross revenues and not the net revenues. I will edit the post.
ReplyDeleteHowever it still does not address the numbers Scott Tomer presented and why when they say they have 130,000 RTAs do they not say that they paid them the $9.4 million? Oh that's right, it is $72 for 9 months.
Thank You John…
ReplyDeleteIf the shoe was on the other foot, and I had access to the numbers Scott provided, and you didn’t, we wouldn’t hear the end of “where are the numbers?!”
The large variation you see is called exponential growth, that’s how Network Marketing works. If you look at the SEC numbers again, you see an increase of more than 200% over the same period for 2006. Again, I don’t have access to the numbers so I’m guessing based on what we see on documented SEC numbers, we had a pretty strong Q4 with continued record growth.
YTB could certainly state accurate numbers for Reps. RTA’s and Travel is far more difficult to nail down since Travel is not reported until YTB is paid from the vendor. It’s been reported to me that YTB has more than 40,000 7 week equivalents booked with Carnival so far for 2008 by 130,000 RTA’s. If you would like to take a stab at what that is worth in raw dollars to our RTA’s be my guest.
I don’t think YTB wants to bother with that just for a Press Release.
Now I have my wife wondering who I’m talking to! ;-P
Hey John, did you know that there are 4 quarters in a year?
ReplyDeleteThe report is "end of 3rd quarter"
The hand out from Scott was "end of year"
Maybe that's why the numbers from the hand out are LARGER than those from the end of 3rd quarter.
Here's your opening line again John, and I will bold what you posted.
The Company paid its Reps and RTAs more than $65 million in combined marketing and travel commissions through the third quarter of 2007.
According to the YTB report I received at the Founder's Tour, YTB paid out $90,666,140 in marketing commissions ALONE for the full year.
Maybe there's such a vast difference between those numbers because there is a difference of 3 months between those numbers.
Proud. Please please read before you make comments like that.
ReplyDeleteYes I know it said for 9 months. I also know Scotts numbers were for 12 months.
But the 9 month numbers from YTB were REP AND RTA numbers
The 12 month numbers from Scott were REP Only.
So if 12 months of REP commission equalled $90 million to the reps alone. It is reasonable to assume that 9 months is about $67.5 million.
I tool $90M divided by 4 to get a quarterly average and then multiplied that by 3 to get the 9 month number.
So, the 9 month REP number exceeds what YTB claims to have paid the RTAs AND Reps.
Where is the discrepancy?
Also, it states that earnings were OVER $65 million for the first 9 months. It didn't say that it was exactly $65 million.
ReplyDeleteMaybe you missed the word "OVER" causing you to believe there was a discrepency.
ReplyDeleteProud. Please please read before you make comments like that.
ReplyDeleteI already said that now didn't I?
But if it was $70 million and one penny, the press release would have said "over $70 million".
YTB is not stupid, although when it comes to some of their recruits, I have to wonder! Well not Seligman--he's a PhD I hear!
When things get rounded to the closest number, they tend to use numbers that end in a 0 or a 5... much like the speedometer on your car. 67.5 million was rounded down to $65 million, because to say that it was $70 million would be lying.
ReplyDeleteYou have to take something so simple and make rocket science out of it... Why? You confuse yourself with your own numbers, and wonder why you don't understand. Not an attack... just an observation.
If you said that, then why do you think there's a discrepency? OMG, this is too funny!!!
ReplyDeleteI pointed it out to you, and if you still don't understand the numbers, then there's truely no hope for you.
Proud. Please please read before you make comments like that.
ReplyDeleteIf that was the case it would have been "almost $70 million dollars"
There is a discrepancy and you can't explain it other than this is what they said.
With each post, you make yourself and by association your fellow YTBers look so fooolish.
When I made a mistake I admitted it. I commented on it. I put the correction at the bottom of the post and at the top--I did not revise the post.
What do you do. You call people names and tell us how generous you are for giving to charity and state earnings that you wish you were receiving.
No, I retaliated on the name calling when others started frist.
ReplyDelete2. I am generous and do give to charity quite often.
3. I state earnings that I DO receive... the same earnings that you wish you received.
If thet say that in 3 qiarters, YTB earnings were OVER $65 million, and at the end of the year were $90,666,140... in the 4th quarter, YTB did 25,666,140 (going by these numbers). Where's the discrepency you are trying to point out????? They did so much in the first 3 quarters, and in the final quarter, gave the final year end result. Cut and dry.
Face it John. Proud's got you. John, are you re;ated to George W. Bush? hen he couldn't understand basic arithmatic, he called it fuzzy math as well.
ReplyDeleteProud. Please please read before you make comments like that.
ReplyDeletePress releases are designed to market a company or control damage. Can we agree on that?
This one is designed to market a company. I think we can agree on that.
However it is flawed. It says that their RTA group grew by leaps and bounds (which it did) and then to demonstrate it, it says that they paid over $65 million dollars to the Reps and RTAs. Why are the Reps in this calculation? This is like saying IBM made 3 million computers last year and the growth can be substantiated because Dell earned $250 million. Two separate companies---just like YTB no?
When you do a press release, you position your message in the most favorable light. I have documents from Scott Tomer saying that FOR A YEAR, they paid $90 million in commission to Reps. Now if we assume each quarter to be equal--they would have paid REPS 67 million through 3 quarters. THis still exceeds the press release and we have not accounted for the RTAs. Now if indeed the number was anything greater than $65 million, it would have been rounded up and worded as such....almost $70 million sounds a lot better than $65 million doesn;t it?
Sort of like Proud saying he earned over $100K in commissions from travel, when in reality it was in sales. Nothing more than spin.
So there IS a discrepancy here.
And a note to the anonymous posters--at least Proud has the courage to register and post. Anonymity is a real sign of cowardice in my book. What's the matter, are you afraid to speak for yourself? Or is it simply a case of you being unable?
A REP earns a commission off of what their RTAs (they sign up) earn.
ReplyDeleteThat's why REPs are added into the calculation.
There are RTAs who are also REPs. Those who are are included in this report. Those RTAs who are not REPs are not included in this report, for the ones who are soley RTAs, they earn ONLY travel commissions... which are NOT on this report. JUST MARKETING COMMISSIONS.
ReplyDeleteRead your own statement again John. The answer was right under your nose all the time.
"YTB paid out $90,666,140 in marketing commissions ALONE for the full year. Assuming (I know you hate when I do that) each quarter was equal, that would equal a payout of marketing commissions of $67,999,605 for the first three quarters--for the Reps alone. This does not include travel.
BTW, John, thank you for the kind words.
Anonymous, This is John's blog. At least show a little respect. Cool it with the name calling. As someone else said, "hate the game... not the player."
This will be my last response to you on this topic Proud because you really don't get it. I am sorry for that.
ReplyDeleteMy point is that the numbers are fuzzy. Why can't YTB say we paid out $65Million in commission to X number of people in both our programs?
Why can't they say we paid out X dollars in commission to our travel selling RTAs?
Why can't they say that they paid out x dollars in commission to our opportunity selling Reps?
Because the numbers SUCK!
Per Scott Tomer the AVERAGE (his word not mine) rep earned $297.25 last year.
Based on commissions paid in 2006 they paid $4.8 million in RTA commissions. YTB says at that time there were 60,000 RTAs so the average earnings (mind you I know this is 2006) was $80.00
YTB has chosen to pick and choose the good numbers they want to highlight but they have zero correlation.
If YTB wanted to put forth a truthful press release your recruiting days would be over, the doors in Illinois would shut and this blog would go away.
Do you expect to see one saying....140,000 RTAs earned an average of $214 in 2007 and all it cost them was $500 to sign up, and $50 a month, and $1200 in magazine purchases, and whatever other expenses they incurred? (My calculation is generous. I took $500M at your word figured 10% commission on that and 60% of that divided out by 140K RTAs)
But wait, you may say that it is a loser. Yes, we know you invested a minimum of $2300, but if you take advantage of our REP opportuinity that is FREE, you can earn an average of $297.25 for the year.
So, with our two fantastic business opportunities, combined your average income will exceed $500 dollars a year and may even approach $600.
Now THAT'S a press release I woudl like to see!
No John, you're the one who deoesn't get it. You don't automatically get travel clients once you start up a website. Some RTAs may be a little slow in that field.
ReplyDeleteThe magazine program is optional! I didn't do it. Yeah, I bought only 3 copies of the first SFH magazine. That's all i needed. Having 3 works just fine. It worked for me.
It is so easy for an outsider to sit back, look at numbers and criticise.
I guess this blog will be here forever, because YTB will also be here forever.
Hey John, I just have to point back to what anonymous said, and you referring to it as "fuzzy math". Sorry John. I told anonymous not to insult, but I just have to laugh. It's not at you directly. it's just then he or she asked if you were related to GWB. I didn't say it.
I'm done with this topic. we've been over and over this type of subject a million times, and John has not yet... and probably never will get it.
ReplyDeleteEvidently, if YTB did over $500,000 in sales, then evidently, the RTAs are earning commissions for it. Now the amount of commissions made per RTA is soley between YTb and that particular RTA. I don't care what John Doe made in travel commissions. I care about what I make in travel commissions. This show me... and YTB that I am doing what I need to be doing... SELLING TRAVEL!
END OF DISCUSSION!
That's 500,000,000
ReplyDeleteYeah, but we still don't know who Dr Bob is....
ReplyDeleteMaybe Dr. Bob is actually Dr. Phil is disguise?
ReplyDeleteMarketing Commissions paid to Reps $55.4 Million
ReplyDeleteTravel Commissions paid to RTA’s $9.4 Million
You know, I actually find these numbers quite interesting - can I infer that "Marketing Commissions" is monies paid out for having sold memberships? If so, I would have to conclude that YTB is not really interested in selling travel, but rather is interested in selling memberships.
Those numbers are not right because travel was not completed, or maybe because you are not IN YTB so you don't know, or YTB is two companies, and blah bl;ah blah---yeah CTA I get that drift too!
ReplyDelete" You know, I actually find these numbers quite interesting - can I infer that "Marketing Commissions" is monies paid out for having sold memberships? If so, I would have to conclude that YTB is not really interested in selling travel, but rather is interested in selling memberships. "
ReplyDeleteWell - I'm sure SubWay has created more franchise sales volume than it's units have produced a profit. In travel - it's not the "sales" figures used - but commissions paid - which would relate to "profits" for SubWay.
Marketing Revenues will always be grater than travel commissions paid. I imagine the time will come when the gap narrows since ytb is doing such a great job in training their rta's and encouraging travel sales.
I could create a team of travel sellers via ytb tomorrow that could book millions in travel if i wanted to work again. But - people are so lazy these days. They buy a travel store and then don't sell travel. Is that the upline or companies fault? No!
Tom
"I could create a team of travel sellers via ytb tomorrow that could book millions in travel if i wanted to work again."
ReplyDeleteLOL, Tom!