I am not willing to bet the farm on this but after receiving two emails from different sources, reading a lot of commentary on different blogs and forums, and taking some time to think it through, I agree that there is a good chance that YTB might consider filing for bankruptcy protection prior to the end of the year. Most likely in the form of a Chapter 7 filing.It is painfully obvious, even to the casual observer, that they are really struggling with cash flow, as well as legal issues. In the last month, they have:
- Tried to sell the plane three times (at a loss)
- Sold off the lion's share of their headquarters land
- Sold off an office building including furnishings (at a loss)
- Reduced the price to join the scheme by 50%
- Offered ridiculous incentives for existing Reps to recruit more people
- Pre-selling 2009 Convention tickets at a discount to raise quick cash
YTB has been in full out reactive mode for some time now. They are desperately trying to prove to the authorities that they are legal. They have added a new booking engine, they are adding more product (potions and lotions) to their RTA sites. All of these moves are desperate attempts to bring the percentage of non-recruiting revenue up to an acceptable level to appease the Attorney General. And no one really has missed that nuance.
Here is how I predict it plays out--YTB has sold a lot of assets and the proceeds from the assets are likely now no longer assets of YTB, Inc.. The economy is tough despite Coach's proclamation that YTB is recessionproof. The Attorney General is looking to "shut down" YTB and the plaintiffs on the Class Action suits are looking for money. Well, YTB all of a sudden "succumbs" to the economy and files a Chapter 7 liquidation bankruptcy. All of the stock is worthless (did anyone notice the large sell offs the past week?). So a trustee comes in to sell the remaining few assets--remember the valuable ones have already been sold. They liquidate what they can to pay off the top tier creditors. The RTAs and Reps are last on the list. The Attorney General realizes that YTB is shut down and is satisfied and may drop the case. The Class Action suits will need to determine if they have the time, will, and money to pursue a judgment against the individuals since the company is no longer an ongoing concern (a concern brought up several times in the 10-Q filing by their own accounting firm). The Attorney General also needs to make the decision to continue to pursue the principles as well as the Reps that will be names as Does 1 to 100..
Meanwhile. YTB management will look like the poor victims of a poor economy. They will profess that they tried everything--selling assets, decreasing the costs, giving those that want to quit free months, all for the "benefit" of the Reps and RTAs. The Reps and RTAs will buy into this story (as they do with any story told from Wood River) and laud them as heroes. The Reps and RTAs will then re-group and some may stay in travel with a legitimate host, others (most) will simply move onto the next get rich quick pyramid scheme they see. And the three musketeers? They already have their hotel reservations for the 2009 Snake Oil Convention in Vegas!
Way to be on time with as post Johnnyboy. This rumor (and that is all it is) is an old one. Way to stir up the mud.
ReplyDeleteJohn is getting desperate. He cant start new rumors, so he stirring up ghosts of old ones.
ReplyDeleteWith all the co-mingling at YTB it's hard to predict. The bank that was financing YTB was run by YTB board members and shut down for illegal banking practices. The company that so proudly made the foam catasrophe turned out to be another YTB company. Almost every vendor that YTB does business with is somehow partially owned by someone on the board. Will companies like Beryl Martin be unaffected by the Chapter 7, or the imending loss of the class action and California suits? Will the giant foam statue be sold off on EBay to pay the attorney fees?
ReplyDeleteWhile the RTAs will be quick to defend YTB and discount John's prediction as wishful thinking, it would be hard not to wonder about the future of YTB no matter what side of the fence you are on.
Do you think Coach has a Plan B??
I think Plan B is to high tail it in the jet somewhere where the authorities can't touch them.....
ReplyDeleteYou sound like a Democrap!
ReplyDeleteOld news? I first heard this 'rumor' last week on a financial message board. Are you saying YTBers have been tossing this idea around for longer than that?
ReplyDeleteNo, not YTBers... Just the NAYSAYERS.
ReplyDeleteAs a person that invested money (that I didn't have), I lost all respect for Coach and the rest of his GROUP. People were given a great snow job.
ReplyDeleteI can't believe this man was a preacher and flat out lied to the ones he took money from. I watched one friend that got me into it get the 500 people she needed to make director, they kept changing the rules in mid stream.
All of us that came from CA to the 2008 convention felt that we were flat out scammed. We were told to expect big things at the convention. We were not warned about the protesters nor were we told in advance that the convention was just a way of selling more YTB JUNK! We were promised things that were not true and it seemed like the ony thing I came home with was a big bill from an overrated hotel room (dishes stayed in the hallway for the week), tubs was filthy, American Express ruled in favor of the Hyatt at Union Station instead and sent us a cheap basket of flowers, instead of a credit for the over $800 we spent that week on a room. We could have saved our hard earned dollars if YTB had been honest and told us they were under investigation.
I am actually going to see if I can join the lawsuit to get some of my money back.
Anon-- I am not sure I believe your entire story. There were no real "protesters" at the convention. There was talk about an environmental group organizing something but it never materialized.
ReplyDeleteOf course they sell you YTB stuff. When have you attended a YTB thing where they weren't pushing DVDs, magazines, etc.? Selling stuff equates to almost as much as they make selling travel. But comes nowhere close to the level of money made by recruiting.
You can try to join the class action suits, but if you are legitimate, I also suggest you submit your claim and version of what happened to the California Attorney General. You can send them an email at sellers.travel@doj.ca.gov
You are from California? Please call the Attorney Generals office today!
ReplyDeleteWell, Anon, I am a naysayer and the 'runor' was news to me as of last week. Glad to hear it's not a surprise for you.
ReplyDeleteJohn Frenaye is ridiculous . . . and desperate!
ReplyDeleteYTB has discounted the convention tickets before the end of the year for 3 years in a row. Nothing new. I bought them each year before the end of the year at a bargain.
Selling off assets to fit ecomomy? Happening all over the financial world. YTB will not need the offices in Edwardsville because of the Wood River expansion. Selling real estate at a loss in this economy? Now that's a new one! That's the norm, not the exception. Anybody see their real estate values decline? Not in John Frenaye's world.
Blogs and forums talking about bankruptcy? Oh, yes the forums made of up the usual anti-YTB suspects that do not have a real life. Sit around all day and obsess about YTB. Real experts, there Johnny Boy. JF is just trying to start an internet fire and hopes it will perpetuate. JF needs to look after his own finances, from what I hear.
Reducing the price to join the scheme? Actually one of the best moves that YTB has ever made. Brilliant marketing move by people who know how to market to fit today's economy. Lot's of interest by the public.
To the poor soul from CA. I'm sure it was Coach who told the Hyatt to leave the dishes in the hallway. He is responsible for all the bad things in the world. I really feel your pain. LOL.
Beryl Martin and the statue? Another piece of folklore that it cost $6 million dollars. Not even close. But JF continues to spin it to keep the myth alive.
YTB has added value to the RTA opportunity in tremendous ways in the past three months. You can call it reactionary. I call it brilliant from the marketing standpoint. The anti-YTB crowd has taken their best shot. But they missed the target and YTB is still standing. Many network marketing companies have lost half of their big leaders over the years. They regroup and are still in business. YTB has lost very few Directors and no one of any significance. The leadership is still in tact. A new booking platform that will drive additional travel sales in 2009. Adding to travel sales that will be up for 2008 . . . something that most "traditional" travel agencies can certainly not boast about.
You realize of course that all the ytb drones are going to say that everything that is going on is nothing more than the head honchos being responsible in a bad economy, and that could possibly be true, but it does give one plenty to think about. RTA numbers have dropped, therefore income from sign-up and monthly fees are down, so money to operate has to come from somewhere, and once the money realized from the sale of assets is gone, where else will cash come from for the day to day operations?
ReplyDelete"YTB has lost very few directors and none of any significance."
ReplyDeleteReally?
I wonder if Holton Buggs would agree with you.
Didn't he make director in 45 days or something? Wasn't he asked to speak at the convention? And didn't he leave YTB shortly after that?
To the Anonymous right above....
ReplyDeleteI doubt highly that John is either ridiculous or desperate. More likely you are. But, to answer each of your points:
Selling off assets....yes, it is happening all over, but why is ytb? Think about it. OK, they're selling off property they "don't need", but what about the office equipment? They're expanding the facilities at Wood River, so won't they need the equipment there? Why go out and buy brand new, when you have perfectly usable stuff already? As for selling the real estate at a loss, well, that isn't really the norm. Matter of fact, here in my area, real estate values are going UP. I just got my property tax bill, and the value of my home INCREASED by $20,000. I have the assessment to prove it.
Blogs and Forums....there are other places besides this one that discuss ytb, and where it's headed. Do a Google search, I'm sure you'll find them. And since you bring up JF's finances, do you know the TRUE story behind what all that is about? I do, and if you did your own homework, instead of listening to others, you would as well, and you wouldn't have anything snide to say. So, before you go off on others about things you know nothing about, check yourself.
Reducing the price....How is that one of the best moves ytb has made? Looks like a fire sale. That's what a company does when they're trying to raise cash, or to pump up their numbers. Retail stores put things on sale at half price when they're trying to get rid of a product that is basically a dog.
Beryl Martin and the Statue....no myth. Documented. Again, before you speak of which you know not, do your research.
New Booking Engine....added value in the last 3 months? Hell yes it's reactionary, as it only came along AFTER the anti movement came along. Why wasn't all this stuff there to begin with? All this stuff that is new to ytb, that you call "added value" has been de riguer in the traditional agencies for years. Same with your so called "first class training". This type of training was REQUIRED in the traditional community for years before an agent was even allowed to speak one word to a client, much less anything else. Why didn't ytb require it?
KH -
ReplyDeleteHolton Buggs is a hardcore network marketer. Making Director is 45 days was the pied piper leading his followers to the next deal. And now he is off to his next deal. He is one of the Elizabeth Taylor-types in network marketing.
The top money earners in YTB are all still in tact. From Ron Head to Peter Jensen to Floyd Williams and others, they are staying the course with YTB. Not the norm with direct sales companies who have taken a shot like YTB has.
Let's dispell one other myth perpetuated by the anti-YTB drones. The Bill of Rights has not been changed. The only area where the marketing commissions have changed was with the travel overrides being paid to the Power Team Leader. That never was part of the original Bill of Rights or the 1st Amendment. This was done to make a clear serparation between the two companies. Director profit sharing is the same as always. YTB just had to enforce the rules had gotten a bit out of hand. If you qualify as a Level One Director, you are paid as one. If you qualify as a Level Three Director, you are paid as one . . . and so on.
KH . . . you are part of the traditional travel agency model. How are things going today at Liberty Travel? How are their assets? Any layoffs or downsizing?
You only lose money on an asset when you actually sell it - if ytb didn't need the cash good business would say to hold onto the land, plane etc until the economy recovers and you can sell it at full value.
ReplyDeleteAinsworth just might well have made the Top Ten Stupid Comments by Anti-YTB Poster List:
ReplyDelete"As for selling the real estate at a loss, well, that isn't really the norm."
What country do you live in, Ainsworth?
Yes the ecomony is in the crapper, but if YTB is going to push their "recession proof" business opportunity, then how is it possible that they are selling the plane and other assets at a loss, all while using the recession as their defense? Could it be it's not "recession proof" as they claim?
ReplyDeleteYou can't claim that you are the victim of the recession, and offering a "recession proof" biz op at the same time.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteAinsworth just might well have made the Top Ten Stupid Comments by Anti-YTB Poster List:
"As for selling the real estate at a loss, well, that isn't really the norm."
What country do you live in, Ainsworth?
Anonymous, I live in the USA, and if you actually READ my post and comprehended it (which I know isn't a strong suit among ytb drones) you would have seen that I said it wasn't the norm IN MY AREA.
But again, when someone from ytb can't face and accept the truth, they attack the messenger.
If we scraped up all the loose change from our couch cushions we could probably by YTB. The stock was down to .21. It's currently trading at a whopping .23 per share. Wonder how much Coach would sell it for right now?
ReplyDeleteAinsworth said:
ReplyDelete"you would have seen that I said it wasn't the norm IN MY AREA."
Yes, and to bring up your area as to one of the FEW areas in the U.S. where real estate values have appreciated in response to my original post shows how far you have to stretch to plead your anti-YTB case.
Most regions of the U.S. have seen a decline in real estate values . . . including the St. Louis area. YTB sold the Edwardsville office because they did not need it and because of the realities of the economy. Just like thousands of U.S. corporations are selling off assets (and, yes, many at a loss) to help with operating expenses, YTB is doing the same.
By the way, most direct sales companies are seeing a decline in sales and earnings. That's what happens in a recession. There are few industries who have not felt the crunch.
I have to laugh at the anti-YTB drones. YTB RTA sales are down and travel sales are up. That should be music to your ears! Less of those dastardly RTAs and more travel sales. And here you are complaining!
Prediction for 2009 - more RTA and Affiliate Sales for YTB. And a strong growth in travel sales. Oh, how the anti-YTB drones will be complaining!
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteAinsworth said:
"you would have seen that I said it wasn't the norm IN MY AREA."
Yes, and to bring up your area as to one of the FEW areas in the U.S. where real estate values have appreciated in response to my original post shows how far you have to stretch to plead your anti-YTB case.
Sounds as if you're jealous that I'm lucky enough to be in an area that is not being hit by the recession. And I don't have to stretch. Both of my homes have appreciated in value, the one here in Louisiana and the one in Mississippi (where people are assuming values are decreasing). So you see, there are 2 areas that aren't going down. I know people all over the country who aren't having any issues with property value declines.
Anonymous, you answered the question about the sale of the real estate, but you DIDN'T answer the question about why are they selling all of the office equipment. If they are expanding the Wood River facility, wouldn't they need office equipment there? And if so, why would they be selling off perfectly usable equipment? Why not just transfer it over to where it can be used?
And yes, Anonymous, you're right. Most direct sales companies are seeing a decline in sales and earnings right now, because what they sell are extraneous and impractical things that people don't need.
Travel, on the other hand, is not extraneous or impractical. People need it, for whatever reason. My sales for 2008 are up, as I bet are lots of other agents. If ytb's travel sales are up so much, then why are they feeling the need to add additional product lines to their portfolio? Why was their Q3 profit only $288,000? Why is the YTB in the red?
"My sales for 2008 are up, as I bet are lots of other agents."
ReplyDeleteGlad yours are up. Happy to hear you and YTB have something in common.
Maybe "lots of agents" are up, but there will be "lots of agents" who will be down in sales for 2007.
"Why was their Q3 profit only $288,000?" We will gladly take the profit. Not quite what the anti-YTB guru John Frenaye was predicting, was it? He was also really "close" when he predicted a $6 million dollar loss for the 2nd quarter. Only missed it by $5.7 million. He's now predicting bankruptcy for YTB. Given how far off he has been on YTB's financials, YTB's financial future looks very strong.
It seems as if John has hit the nail on the head with this post today. I would suggest that the YTBers read it again in a month.
ReplyDeleteAnd why are you bringing 2007 into this? That was last year. We're now talking about 2008, which is this year.
ReplyDeleteIf ytb's 2008 sales are up so fantastically much, why was the Q3 profit only $288,000 and the YTD over $3M in the red? It seems as if ytb had all these sales that you keep harping on were coming in, numbers would be different. Profit for the quarter would be higher, and YTD would not be in the red.
I can't speak for John F., and he may have been off, but as of now, all signs point to a not so happy ending for the year 2008. Even if you have another profit for Q4, it won't bring the YTD numbers out of the red, and as of right now the stock is trading at $0.22, which is a $0.02 or 6.25% loss for the day. This has been the trend for a while now. This is what happens to companies right before they file for bankruptcy.....loss of value, low quarterly profits, loss of "employees", sale of assets, insiders dumping their stock, etc.
Reducing the price to join the scheme? Actually one of the best moves that YTB has ever made. Brilliant marketing move by people who know how to market to fit today's economy. Lot's of interest by the public
ReplyDeleteREALLY?? I have had back and forths with many YTB RTAs who felt that if the price was LESS than $500 then the business wasn't of any value. And that only 'TRUE' business professionals would join for $500. And that a lower price wasn't worth joining!! And even a 1-2yrs ago it was discussed people can't afford $500 b/c of the crazy economy. You YTBers wouldn't hear of it!! I know for a FACT one of the 3 musketeers (Gail) said this.
So now you guys are saying that's the BEST thing ever done!!! Talk about going where the wind blows...you guys really can't think for yourselves!!
The advice about you guys doing your OWN RESEARCH is great. Why don't you get your head out of the Kool Aid pitcher, get out of your Coach shrine rooms, and go do the research yourselves! Or is that not allowed in your cult?
I CAN'T WAAAIIT to see all the stuff that John speaks about actually happen...I would LOVE to see how you all react!!! You will all probably still be promoting YTB even after it's no longer b/c you guys believe that Coach is the master!
ReplyDeleteROTFLMAO!!!!!!!
Where is FireMedic? How does he feel now that you YTBers have to sell potions/lotions/financial services/home decor/hunting supplies/clothes/real estate/do-rags/medicine/diet pills/shoes/TVs/Oil Changes/meals/etc....
ReplyDelete"He is one of the Elizabeth Taylor-types in network marketing."
ReplyDeleteIsn't Elizabeth Taylor a washed up, has been? LOL!
"Isn't Elizabeth Taylor a washed up, has been? LOL!"
ReplyDeleteElizabeth is famous for jumping at the next thing moving.
Ainsworth -
FYI - 2007 was a typo.
"I CAN'T WAAAIIT to see all the stuff that John speaks about actually happen...I would LOVE to see how you all react!!! You will all probably still be promoting YTB even after it's no longer b/c you guys believe that Coach is the master!
ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!"
I suggest you check your underwear. Sounds like you experienced an orgasm.
Amazing how YTB gets you TTAs all worked up! It is something to watch.
The room is FULL of HOOTS!
ReplyDeleteYall make me LAUGH!
Just had to stop by and give yall 2 HOOTS and a HOLLAR!
HOOT! HOOT! WOO WHOOO!
"I CAN'T WAAAIIT to see all the stuff that John speaks about actually happen..."
ReplyDeleteDon't hold your breath! Cause you'll have to WAIT A GOOD LONG WHILE!
Tell him Melvin, Tell him he's a HOOT!
Drones? The YTB "drones" name sure gets thrown around here alot but even John says he's not willing to bet the farm on this one. Oh! But you can't wait to see that John's predictions come true! You know, the one he's not willing to bet the farm on but still willing to spread the rumor!
ReplyDeleteAinsoworth, you are the last person that needs to bitch about people making personal attacks. Look in the mirror girl.
John, why did you decide to change the direction of your newly bought domain? Scared of a little ole company that's about to go bankrupt?
Here comes the personal attacks again. Happens every time you people can't handle the truth.....Deflect, personal attacks, name calling blah,blah,blah....
ReplyDeleteLook in your own back yard anonymous. Several of your BSD, that's big shit directors have credit issues and jail time and one in particular likes to bounce checks. Don't be coming on here accusing John of stuff when there is plenty of crap going around in YTB's ranks...
Anon, unless you get off this site and out into the world and start recruiting YTB will not be able to pay it's lawyer bills and they will go down the drain. It's all up to YOU to keep YTB afloat. Do your job and keep your JOB.
ReplyDeleteThat's a HOOT!
ReplyDeleteTo anonymous above who has been snooping in John's credit reports. You are in violation of the Federal Privacy Act. Likewise, the only way you could know about someone's credit history and bill paying history is to access their credit report. To do this you would need to to have their social security number. If you indeed have John's social security number this is a very serious offense.
ReplyDeleteIncidentally, criminal records are public records and are not protected.
I suggest you knock it off before your ISP is traced and you yourself end up in hot water for violating the Privacy Act and tapping into John's credit report.
John's credit is nobody's business. Stick to the topic.
ReplyDeleteTrace my ISP, that wont even get you close to finding me without a HOMELAND SECURITY hall pass.
ReplyDeleteAnd then they are nowhere close to finding me...
Your Funny!
"Trace my ISP, that wont even get you close to finding me without a HOMELAND SECURITY hall pass.
ReplyDeleteAnd then they are nowhere close to finding me...
Your Funny!"
And, you are seriously whacked. You are not as protected as you think. Again, it's not your business. Stick to the topic. Instead of worrying about YTB imploding you are obsessing over John. LOL!
To the Anonymous that I was going back and forth with this morning---I see you made it a point of telling me that you typed 2007, but it was a typo, but I see you also have yet to answer a direct question. This is something that you ytb types are famous for. A direct question is asked, and is never answered, but instead you try to deflect the conversation hoping that we'll forget about it. Well, I'm going to ask again, and any ytb drone can answer, if it's possible. If the sales of travel with ytb are up as much as you all claim they are, why is it that your Q3 ended with a miniscule profit of only $288,000? Yes, any profit is better than none, but with a sales force of over 114,000 and all the crowing you have been doing about how up the sales are, why is the profit so small? And, if sales are up so much, why is the YTD number a NEGATIVE $3,000,000+? Again, if your sales are so great, and up as much as you are claiming, that number would be smaller, and even black instead of red.
ReplyDeleteTo the last Anonymous to address me, I have "bitched" about personal attacks today, because it was one of your own that started it. I have kept everything on point. It is the ytber's who, when confronted with a truth they don't want to hear, start with the personal attacks to try to take the conversation off topic. When it comes to me personally, as long as a person can maintain a semblance of intelligence, I won't say a snide word, but the second that something nasty is said to me directly, then you bet your ass I'm coming back in kind. Do two wrongs make a right? No, but sometimes the emotion overtakes the intellect.
And to all the Anonymous's (one of whom sure does have the writing style of our best bud FireMedic), I, like John, am not "betting the farm" that ytb will file for bankruptcy, but they sure are acting just like other companies that have. As I stated in my last posting before this one, they are selling off assets that they "suddenly" have no use for, the stock price is dropping dramaticly, the quarterly profits are miniscule, the sales force is leaving, company executives are selling off their shares of stock, etc. I won't go as far as saying that they'll file by the end of the year, but I will go on record as saying that a bankruptcy filing isn't too far off. Could be by the end of the year, could be a month, 6 months, 10 months, a year even, but it is coming.
Apparently things work a little differently over in the trailer park than what they do here.
ReplyDeleteLet me make sure I understand what you're thinking. By posting a link to John's financials, that somehow makes YTB more credible? Makes you more ethical?
Ever notice that the people that speak out against YTB aren't afraid to post their names? Man up anon! If you are going to try to trash someone, you ought to at least have the kahunas to put your name on it.
By the way, most direct sales companies are seeing a decline in sales and earnings. That's what happens in a recession. There are few industries who have not felt the crunch.
ReplyDeleteYes, but those direct sales companies that are DEBT FREE are not on the verge of going out of business just because sales are down. Same with the DEBT FREE travel agencies out there. They'll still be around when other's (not just MLMs but those that heavily discounted by rebating the bulk of their commissions) will be long gone.
Note to all. I have deleted the comments that referenced personal information about me, my family as well as that of Doug and his family.
ReplyDeleteYou have crossed the line. The IP addresses have been reported.
This thread is closed for further comments.
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