Maybe Doug is onto something here. As anyone who has read this blog for a while knows, I do feel that there likely is some neutral territory for MLM and TTA. I guess the issue is just finding it.
I am one of the critics of both Mancini and the Davidoffs. On the surface it looks like they sold out. Perhaps they did--we will never know. But if indeed they are seeing a future for YTB, maybe it is time for them to inform the rest of the world, and not via a sound bite for an article.
The issue I see is that we have been down this road many times. YTB tends to be reactionary. They skirted the IATAN regulations and it bit them in the ass. They shrugged the IOC rules for Olympic tickets and it bit them in the ass. They laughed at the CA Attorney General and it bit them in the ass. It seems that YTB is deeply seated in the MLM model and not travel. Why should the TTAs assume this is just not another way to buy legitimacy? They bought a cover to the Saturday Evening Post, why not hire the Davidoffs?
Maybe if YTB just for once decided to do something to enhance their "travel" biz, it might go a long way. Maybe have someone other than Directors and Circle of Champion members teach the Certified Referring Travel Agent traingin curriculum. Maybe encourage people to get the training and not the credential. Maybe approach the trade press and admit that they have a PR and perception problem and want to work to improve it.
All YTB has done in the last several years has come off looking like some dimented Dr. Evil in an Austin Powers remake. They want to sell "billions" and be the "biggest in the world". Their motto has been "we are YTB we make the rules, we don't follow them." Their senior management has NO travel industry background. Their Board has NO travel industry background. And very few in the call center have a travel industry background. And very few in the field have a travel industry background. If I had to guess, this supposed #26 travel company, might have 500 out of 438,000 people that have a background in travel. I would also bet that 300,000+ have prior MLM experience and are prepared to move on when the moment is right. So why are they a travel company again?
If they were truly a legitimate, successful travel company, they wouldn't have to do things like buy their way onto the cover of the Saturday Evening Post to try to improve their image.
ReplyDeleteEverything that YTB does is for show-they give little crumbs of trying to do the right thing. If you've got over 100,000 people with no travel training, and THEN you hire Mancini, it's doesn't mean Jack. Had they hired Mancini before those people had joined, and then insisted all those people go through training before they did anything else, then they would be a great travel company. But that's not what happened. Their just an mlm. Their focus is recruiting, not on selling travel.
And I couldn't help but notice that I can't get any response to my questions about what is going on in Bermuda and the Bahamas.
And according to TheStreet.com, an investment and financial website, on Friday Aug 15, ytb stock was downgraded to SELL. It had been on a "hold this stock" status since Apr 22. Wonder why they would have made this change?
ReplyDeletehttp://www.thestreet.com/story/10433775/7/tsc-ratings-updates-gannett.html
What upsets me the most about YTB is their in your face attitude. They blatantly tell everyone we are going to be the largest travel business on the planet and tell us either we are with them or against them. They make no bones about the fact they think TTA's are obsolete and the internet is the wave of the future.
ReplyDeleteThey don't want to get along with TTA's. They want us gone. Period. As in out of business. That is evident in their recruiting, their blogs, craigslist and all the comment here.
Well they keep pushing the internet travel business because most of the people in YTB have no clue about the net or computers in general.
ReplyDeleteInternet travel has been around long before YTB was here. YTB didn't "invent" it as they like to claim and the zombies jump on board. My relatives in YTB can barely turn their computer on not to mention anything else. The "recruiter" that recruited them stated that YTB was sending her a computer since she didn't have one. And she had no clue what she was doing with my Aunts when they turned it on. Now how can you sell travel etc if you don't have a computer for your online website rental? I'd love to see the average age etc of the people in YTB. My bet and from looking at alot of the pictures from the "Nutvention", alot of them are in the upper 50+ age range. Thus they are a easy target.
AT,
ReplyDeleteI completely agree with what you said. That is one of my biggest gripes as well. They claim they are not our competition (and they aren't) but yet they make the false claims that the internet put agencies out of business, that EVERYONE is buying online, that TTAs are obsolete.
Then you get the Doctor Evil ones that boast how they are going to sell one billion dollars, or be the largest agency in the universe..blah blah. Do you see any other agencies out there doing this.?? Do you see Amex or Carlson shoving down their throats that they in fact did BILLIONS more dollars in travel more then these fools. No.
There lies the difference.
I've said it so many times I'm sick of typing it. If they really wanted to be part of the travel industry, they would get MANDATORY PROPER TRAINING before setting RTA's loose into the industry. Training not meaning the suppliers explaining their products, I mean true travel training including geography. If they did this, they could very well be one of the largest. But they don't do it. Its their own demise.
"They wouldn't have to do things like buy their way onto the cover of the Saturday Evening Post to try to improve their image."
ReplyDeleteKate -
You are so full of it that it is ridiculous.
YTB did not buy their way on to the cover.
The SEP allows for someone WHO HAS AN ARTICE WRITTEN ABOUT THEM in the Saturday Evening Post to get a special edition with them on the cover.
It's never enough for the arrogant WTAs (whining travel agents) on this board.
YTB needs to improve their travel training . . .
It was not because they were hearing from a handful of WTAs.
It was because they wanted to sell more travel and add value to the RTA position.
YTB hires Marc Mancini and The Academy and it is "reactionary" . . . and Mancini becomes the scum of the Earth to the WTAs.
That is itself shows REAL class by the WTas.
"Had they hired Mancini before those people had joined . . ."
The discussions with Marc Mancini and The Academy began in the 1st quarter of 2007 when YTB was half the size it is now.
YTB grew from 60,000 to 125,000 RTAs in 2007.
YTB grew from 140 employees to over 300 employees.
Not a small task in itself.
In the midst of hyper-growth, things do not always happen overnight.
And they are certainly not going to happen because a bunch of WTAs cry about it.
By the way, Kate.
You previously complained about the space between sentences in my comments.
It do it just for you.
You obviously have a hard time comprehending the facts.
YTB was founded in 2001 as your TRAVEL biz. It took them 6 years to consider a TRAVEL training program? Maybe it was again reactionary to the almost 2 years of AG discussions?
ReplyDelete"They don't want to get along with TTA's. They want us gone. Period. As in out of business."
ReplyDeleteThat was not the attitude of a majority of the RTAs previously.
It IS the attitude of the majority of RTAs now.
The CA AG was obviously working with the TTA industry in their attempt to shut YTB down.
They could find very little on the travel side of YTB that was wrong.
So they played the "pyramid" card.
You now have motivated us.
More than you will ever know.
Coach must have a lot of realatives to 'employ' 300 people.
ReplyDeleteAT - you are wrong about YTB wanting the TTA's gone. That is only your perception. What YTB is taking is the large market share of the people that want to book online. These are the customers you already don't have.
ReplyDeleteJust like the comparison I have used before with the gas stations. Years ago whenever you went to a gas station it was a full service station. They were ALL like that. However as time went on customers were offered the ability to pump their own gas and save some money. They had to check their own oil and clean their own windshield too. But they didn't mind because they felt empowered and they were saving money. Fast forward to today and you rarely find a full service gas station but when you do you find that they are priced higher. That's perfectly okay too and some people are willing to pay the extra price for the service. It's just not the trend that the masses are doing. Absolutely NOTHING wrong with the service of the TTA but it's just not what the masses are doing.
As far as your resentment about aiming to be the largest travel company.....that is a vision. A goal. Like the Bible says "without a vision the people parish". ( right-wing nut job manual reference) Being bold about a goal is not bad. If it ticks someone off....oh well. You can't control how others feel. They get to decide that but if you are not going to be bold then why even try?
As far as not wanting to get along with the TTA's...nonsense. The only thing you see is what is posted on the anti-YTB blogs therefore your reality is just this. How many anti-TTA blogs do you see out there? And the few that may be out there I don't believe it is the TTA that they are protesting, it's the attacks the TTA's are waging unfairly against YTB.
Kate, as far as the SEP, yes they bought the whole issue and was able to feature Coach on the front. Big deal. YTB is not the only company to do it. It happens every month with other companies. The cover is the ONLY thing different about it though. The whole issue, with the story of Coach and YTB, is exactly the same as the one on the store shelves. YTB did not pay to have that article either as confirmed by the SEP.
I believe YTB knows where their challenges are and they are growing knowing what they are. They don't operate with the attitude of trying to avoid making a mistake. I believe they operate out of the attitude of "mistakes will be made and we will learn from them and we will become better". When someone is afraid to make a mistake all the time, that is where their focus is. Usually your focus is exactly what you get. Mistakes are a natural part of the learning process so why obsess about avoiding them, rather focus on getting better after them.
As far as Bermuda and the Bahamas....Don't know. Not worried about it. As far as the stock going up and down....not worried about it. Microsofts stock was all over the place when they began too. (Oh, and Bill Gates didn't have any computer company experience prior to launching Microsoft either, let alone any business experience).
Not sure who posted it in the past but perhaps there is a small movement of the travel industry trending back towards the TTA and I believe YTB is working towards that also.
Oh and John, you keep talking about this being "reactive" thing. We ALL are reactive. That is how we stay on track. Sure we try to avoid perceivable obstacles but sometimes they are not so clear. If you don't think you are reactive then the next time you are driving straight down the highway try taking your hands off the steering wheel for a while and see where you end up. Unless you are reactive to the steering wheel you will end up in the ditch.
Hey Mix, we should really only attack ideas and actions not the person. To say someone "is" something is not true. Leave that kind of talking to the anti-YTB crowd. We can do better than that. Just my opinion teammate.
ReplyDeleteso fireman says rtas dont want ttas gone and mix says they do.
ReplyDeleteyou guys are hysterical that the ttas and the ag teamed up. maybe we teamed up with the former rtas too. it is always someone elses fault. the ag could care less what any tta thinks.
bill gates hired people who know computers.
ReplyDeleteNobody said Mancini was the scum of the earth. Is anyone actually taking his classes..how many? It should be mandatory for anyone that is a RTA to actually learn the industry. Wouldn't that be important.? Why has it taken this long? If you open a business, you want people who know that business running/operating it. Your big wigs don't know travel, they should have at least hired someone who did. Now your recruiting people to sell your travel, you want people who KNOW THE PRODUCT. You don't have that. So you should TRAIN THEM ON THE PRODUCT. Not something thats "if you want to", it should be "you have to". That to me would make sense.
ReplyDeleteEven if your only running a website, your friends/family whatever may have questions, how are you going to answer them if you know NOTHING. Wouldn't you feel stupid saying that.
I just do not get it. Why are you not grasping this?
"Just like the comparison I have used before with the gas stations. Years ago whenever you went to a gas station it was a full service station. They were ALL like that. However as time went on customers were offered the ability to pump their own gas and save some money."
ReplyDeleteBut the fallacy here is that you can do it "cheaper". People have been conditioned to think everything they can buy online is cheaper - but in most head to head comparisons the TTA's win not only on actual price - but getting more bang for the buck actually spent.
That and it took none of the clients time to do it.
How much time does the average person spend researching where they want to go and how to buy it online? 1 hour...3 hours...5 hours? I'd say longer because unless it's just a simple air ticket back to mom's they are going to research airline schedules, hotels (reviews and prices), optional activities. Since they most likely haven't been to that destination before - they are starting from scratch - with a longer learning curve.
Now how much are those hours worth?
If they're doing any of it at work - the hour is worth what their boss is paying them - $10...$15 an hour? Oh - and have to wonder how the boss feels about company time being used.
If they're doing it at home after work and taking time away from the 3 hours they might have with their kids or maybe the two hours they have to spend time with their spouse after the kids go to bed...what is that time worth per hour? Have to wonder - what do the spouse and kids think about that?
Can that time ever be recaptured?
TTA's have sent people all over the world, are familiar with the destinations, have first hand info to rely on for resort reviews, know to look out to make sure that flight connecting through London doesn't land at Heathrow and then continue on out of Gatwick as many of the lower cost schedules will come up. We make it look easy - but it's because of the experience and the time invested over the years that gives us a huge well to draw on.
We can put together an itinerary, place a client at a well priced hotel in a good location with good reviews, give them some tips about what to do in each region - all for either the same or lower price than someone can do it for themselves.
And they have not stolen time from any of the more important endeavors in their lives.
So tell me again...why is doing it yourself on a ytb website better?
I didn't say the TTA's and the AG teamed up. I certainly believe other travel industry folk have their hand in the middle of the AG stuff. I think that Mix is wrong when if he says we want the TTA's gone.
ReplyDeleteIs that actually you typing John? Usually you are more witty and capitalize your letters.
YTB have hired people that know travel too. But since you don't like them they don't count do they?
yes its me. hurt my knee had surgery typing laying down
ReplyDeleteLittle bird. "So tell me again...why is doing it yourself on a ytb website better?"
ReplyDeleteNot saying it is better. It's just what the masses of people are doing. Sounds to me like you need to make his case with the customer rather than attacking the online companies. We are just offering the customer what they are already doing.
Knew you had surgery. Been there and it sucks. Pain killers are awesome during this time. Seriously, get take care of your knee and don't do more than the doc wants you too.
ReplyDeleteWe do - everyday. That's why the reports are actually showing a return to TTA usage (despite what your leaders are telling you)and some of the online giants are opening up brick and mortar stores.
ReplyDeletewell the doc in the er did ask me if i wanted to join his downline and save big bucks on the surgery and drugs. $449 and $50 a month at YOB.com yourorthopaedicbiz.com
ReplyDeleteThere's the wit. Yep, it's you.
ReplyDelete"We do - everyday. That's why the reports are actually showing a return to TTA usage (despite what your leaders are telling you)and some of the online giants are opening up brick and mortar stores."
ReplyDeleteAnd thus perhaps part of the reason for the YTB franchise system.
Ah, but the fallacy with FireMedic and his gas station analogy is this.......In New Jersey all gas stations are full service. No self serve allowed, and NJ has some of the LOWEST gas prices in the country!
ReplyDeleteHey John, if you sign up for YOB I will sign up under you.
ReplyDeleteno the franchise was a knee jerk announcement when ytb realized the ag was tired of being jerked around. the first wind i got of the ag deal was the day before the franchise announcement. and why not announce the franchise at the convention? it was a failed stop gap measure to get the ag to back off. that one did not work either
ReplyDelete"Ah, but the fallacy with FireMedic and his gas station analogy is this.......In New Jersey all gas stations are full service. No self serve allowed, and NJ has some of the LOWEST gas prices in the country!"
ReplyDeleteAhhhhh! New Jersey! Sort of like Rhode Island with online sites yet we still work. Again, the MASSES of people are not flocking to NJ to buy their gas. By the way, just checked the gas prices there and where I live, they are the same and we have some pretty high fuel taxes.
And the MASSES are not flocking to ytb to buy travel. If they were, it would be no problem for ANY ytb agent to prove that they make 6 figures from the sale of TRAVEL alone, and not 6 figures only when you include the marketing side of it. If ytb people were making the majority of their "income" from the sale of travel, this whole debate would be moot, but since you make the majority of the "income" from the marketing side, it makes you marketers and NOT travel agents, yet you still insist on calling yourself a travel agent.
ReplyDeleteAnd, don't throw out that you made #26 on the Travel Weekly list. Included in the amount that ytb reported was MARKETING income. There are 25 other companies that made more than ytb, all of them selling TRAVEL. If you take out the marketing income, I doubt ytb would have made the list, but I guess we'll never know because no one seems to be able to seperate the two.
ReplyDeleteAinsworth, you are wrong. Travel weekly checked the numbers. You really don't know anything about networking. Just because you don't like doesn't mean it's not good. Nobody said that the Masses were flocking to YTB. The masses are flocking to online travel bookings of which YTB has chosen to be part of.
ReplyDeleteOh, Firemedic, no, I don' know anything about networking, at least not the way ytb does it, nor do I care to, after hearing the stories of former ytber's and how they were treated if they asked a question or weren't up to ytb's snuff.
ReplyDeleteThe numbers that ytb submitted, and were "verified" are the same numbers that ytb submitted with their filings, which included the marketing income, the sale of education materials, and most probably the cars and flowers"
And, studies and polls have shown that the "masses" are starting to book away from online sites, and back with REAL travel agents.
I will make this offer once again.....if any of you, FireMedic, Mix, IMHO, or any other ytber can prove to me that they are making a livable income from nothing but the SALE OF TRAVEL, I will graciously come back to this and other forums and state that I was wrong and ytb is right, as well as signing up into that persons downline on the spot. I will be at the ASTA Tradeshow in MCO in 2 weeks, and that would be the perfect forum to "show me the money". (And by "livable income", I mean a yearly income that will keep me in the lifestlye that I am living now, which is a MINIMUM of $75,000.) Any takers? Probably not.
Ainsworth,
ReplyDeleteHey I'll be flying into MCO on the 9th! Wish it was one of my free days, I'd love to drop by and say hello. But none of that lovely dovey bear huggy stuff that Doug and Rod enjoy!
Scam, I'm going to be in town until the 10th. What time do you get in? Would be cool to meet you. e-mail me at tvainsworth@gmail.
ReplyDeleteSure there will always be travelers who don't feel that a travel professional is beneficial to them, who prefer to handle the arrangements themselves. Certainly nothing wrong with that.
ReplyDeleteWhat I don't get, honestly, is the statement that YTB doesn't consider TTA's competition as they're going after a different segment of the travel population.
If their focus is the travel who already books online, why have YTB folk been wanting me and my agency in their downline? Why, each time I've been talking with a YTBer, and they offer me a "slice of the action" and I decline, do they turn nasty and spiteful and rather hateful?
I don't have problems with the MLM business model in itself - it has a place and a method, and can actually be successful. Yet, if you look at all the successful MLM companies, what do they have in common? A product. Something tangible like lipstick, a frying pan, plastic storage units, and so on. Travel isn't a product. Travel is a service. It's intangible - there isn't any inventory that we need to stock because the client isn't paying for inventory. He/she is paying for a service.
When a service is requested and paid for, an expectation of that service is in the mind of the client. When one of my clients pays for a private car transfer from the airport to the hotel, he has an expectation that the car will be clean and operate well, and that the driver can get him to his destination efficiently and safely. So far, we've established the expectations for just about every public transportation service. So, instead of a taxi, why opt for a private sedan? The client has additional expectations that come into play then.
If you relate that back to the travel industry, those who opt to use the services of a travel professional generally are looking for something - the extra "omph" they can't get themselves from an online site. As a previous commenter said, the extra "omph" can be anything. Helping a traveler avoid a costly and stressful mistake like flying into LHR and flying out of LGW after a 45 minute connection. Knowing that hotel rooms in London aren't exactly like hotel rooms in America, and preparing the client for that. Being the client's advocate when something goes awry, or re-accommodating a traveler stranded at the airport when their flight is cancelled.
If you are referring people to YOUR travel website to book their travel, when something goes wrong, why wouldn't they think they need to call you? After all, that's part of the spiel - "book with someone you know, rather than a faceless website." So you're assuming that responsibility to provide the service I talked about. But you don't. You can't. It's not really your fault - you don't know how. You don't know the ways and means of the travel industry. And what's worse, you don't seem to want to know.
"no the franchise was a knee jerk announcement when ytb realized the ag was tired of being jerked around. the first wind i got of the ag deal was the day before the franchise announcement. and why not announce the franchise at the convention? it was a failed stop gap measure to get the ag to back off. that one did not work either"
ReplyDeleteSorry, John.
Wrong on that one also.
The franchise plans have been in the works for more than a year.
A handful of Directors were privy to the details months ago.
Not a knee-jerk reaction like you portray.
Great planning by a great company.
The AG just listened to the wrong people.
And he will be proven wrong.
Mark my words.
You know what is really funny? Dismissing the class action law suits as a misunderstanding. The law firm Carey & Danis is one of the TOP class action law firms in the country. They filed suit and won against VIOXX, asbestos and Microsoft for anti trust violations. This is no rinky dink law firm as some of you have said. Do you really think Coach and Company can go against a firm this large and powerful?
ReplyDeleteWell there we have one insider who says "more than a year" and another that says since March of 08--bir Lori apparently did not feel confident in her answer and deleted it.
ReplyDeleteI assume that franchising was a "plan B" since there was an ongoing investigation. I mean when the options you face are being shut down or having more oversight, it becomes an easy choice. But this reactionary choice may have been a little too late.
I am glad that Mix is aware that the AG spoke with the wrong people--apparently 18 months was not enough time to mull through 300 people at HQ to find the correct person. Once again, I see YTB posturing this as a "misunderstanding". Good luck with that.
The only unfortunate part about this is that Mix is still relatively anonymous. While he says he will gloat and taunt and tease "when" the AG is proven wrong and YTB wins, I suspect he will have long moved onto some other MLM opportunity of a "lifetime". And being anonymous, we have no way of returning the favor.
But as a heads up, when this blog ends, it will be a VERY short post---three words!
So a handful of directors have known about the franchising plan for a long time....I wonder if any mentioned a change in the forecast when they were recruiting. No?
ReplyDeleteDoes anyone other than myself see that as deceptive? Well, par for the course with the recruiting tactics.
California AG investigating...18 months
ReplyDeleteYTB talking about franchise model...12 months
Yep - still looks reactionary to me!