I am not sure there is much more comment I can make, so here is the notice I received from the State of California late last night:
Embargoed Until 10:00 p.m. Pacific Time on August 4, 2008
Contact: California Attorney General's Press Office 916-324-5500
Ca. Atty. Gen. Brown Sues To Topple Online Pyramid Scheme
LOS ANGELES--California Attorney General Edmund G. Brown Jr. today sued YourTravelBiz.com for operating a gigantic pyramid scheme that recruited tens of thousands of members with deceptive claims that members could earn huge sums of money through its online travel agencies.
“YourTravelBiz.com operates a gigantic pyramid scheme that is immensely profitable to a few individuals on top and a complete rip-off for most everyone else,” Attorney General Brown said. “Today’s lawsuit seeks to shut down the company’s unlawful operation before more people are exploited by the scam.”
YourTravelBiz.com and its affiliates operate an illegal pyramid scheme that only benefits members if and when they find enough new members to join the scam. Once enrolled, members who join the pyramid scheme earn compensation for each new person they enlist, regardless of whether they sell any travel. The company lures new members by offering huge income opportunities through online travel agencies yet the typical person actually makes nothing selling travel.
According to company records there were over 200,000 members in 2007 who typically pay more than $1,000 per year--$449.95 to set up an “online travel agency” with a monthly fee of $49.95. In 2007, only 38 percent of the company’s members made any travel commissions. For the minority of members who made any travel commission in 2007, the median income was $39.00--less than one month’s cost to keep the Website. There are at least 139,000 of the company’s travel Websites, all virtually identical, on the Internet.
YourTravelBiz’s extensive marketing materials include videos of people driving Porsches and other luxury cars, holding ten-thousand dollar checks, and claiming to be raking in millions of dollars in profits. The company advertises through its Website www.ytb.com, and at conventions, workshops and nationwide sales meetings which have been held in California locations such as Los Angeles, Sacramento, San Francisco and San Diego.
Brown charges the company, its affiliates, and the company’s founders J. Lloyd Tomer, J. Scott Tomer, J. Kim Sorensen and Andrew Cauthen with operating an “endless chain scheme,” an unlawful pyramid in which a person pays money for the chance to receive money by recruiting new members to join the pyramid. Brown also charges the company with unfair business practices and false advertising practices including:
* Deceptive claims that members can earn millions of dollars with the company
* Operating without filing legally mandated documents with the attorney general and the Department of Corporations
* Selling an illegal travel discount program
Under California’s unfair business practices statute, the company is liable for $2,500 per violation of law. Attorney General Brown is suing YourTravelBiz.com to get a court order that:
* Bars the company from making false or misleading statements
* Assesses a civil penalty of at least $15,000,000 and at least $10,000,000 in restitution for Californians who were ripped off by the company.
From August 6 through 10, thousands of members are preparing to travel to St. Louis for a national convention to learn new techniques to recruit more victims into the illegal pyramid scheme. Last year at least 10,000 people attended a similar national conference. For more details on the company’s plan to perpetuate its scheme visit:
http://www.yourtravelbiz.com/bizRep/BizReports/BIZREPORT_07-18-08.htm
For more information on pyramid schemes visit:
http://ag.ca.gov/consumers/general/pyramid_schemes.php
Any consumers who believe they have been bilked by YTB should send a written complaint with copies of any supporting documentation to:
Office of the Attorney General
Public Inquiry Unit, P.O. Box 944255
Sacramento, CA 94244-2550
Or through an on-line complaint form:
http://ag.ca.gov/contact/complaint_form.php?cmplt=CL.
Today’s lawsuit against YourTravelBiz.com, filed in Los Angeles Superior Court today, is attached. The lawsuit also names affiliates which include YTB Travel Network, Inc., YTB Travel Network of Illinois,Inc., as well as the company’s founders J. Lloyd Tomer, J. Scott Tomer, J. Kim Sorensen and Andrew Cauthen.
# # #
There’s something wrong here with Jerry Brown. This is California politics as usual unfortunately. He doesn’t give a fair shake to the voters. He’s inaccurate, prejudice, singles out with unfair treatment those he opposes are a few of the allegations against him in a lawsuit he himself is involved in. Listen to this recording about him from this past weekend:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.yousendit.com/download/Q01GM25OQ1I4aU94dnc9PQ
I tend to believe that AG Jerry Brown has misstated a few facts about YTB after hearing a report this weekend how this guy is motivated by politics to get what he wants.
A report of the lawsuit is on this week's edition of Washington Watch Radio:
http://www.frc.org/get.cfm?c=RADIO
When the good citizens of California are seeking to overturn activist judges by Constitutionally defining marriage, how low will marriage opponents sink in their fight to advance the homosexual agenda? The Attorney General - Jerry Brown - this week has made a blatant attempt, using made up facts, to purposefully deceive and misstate the purpose of Prop 8 - the Constitutional Amendment to define marriage.
The proponents of Proposition 8 which is the ballot initiative to protect marriage in California filed a lawsuit against AG Jerry Brown for filing an extremely misleading and prejudicial ballot title and summary to the ballot initiative. The AG did a complete about face on the ballot language receiving 1.1 million signatures from California voters. He replaced the language with an extremely prejudicial title. It’s extremely argumentative and creates a great prejudice against the measure before the voters even have the opportunity to vote on it.
This is not very good news for YTB, especially on the eve of their national convention. This will cast a dark cloud over the gigantic Styrofoam Statue of Liberty.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyJ1qigBJqI
MLM / Network marketing has always had to battle the public's image of the business model. Right or wrong, the business model has always been labeled as being a pyramid scheme. It is hard to gain support from the public when a majority of the people that invested their money into a program have little or nothing to show for it. They feel "ripped off".
ReplyDeleteI do not think that this issue is nearly as political as the gay marriage issues in the state of California. I don't think that Attorney General Brown will have deal with any backlash from this lawsuit.
COuld be a dark cloud but...Politics aside, this seems like a strange "fishing" expidition by the CA AG.
ReplyDeleteI read the lawsuit. I read Brown's quotes in the LA Times.
I don't get it. He is claiming the same junk that many of TTA claim. Problem is is that the claims made are bascially about a few REPS not YTB itself, many of which post ads on craigslist. Nowhere does YTB participate in or condone the misleading marketing. In fact in the REP terms and conditions, as some of you are aware of now, it flat out says you CAN"T do any of it.
I am no legal expert but based on that this lawsuit will be tossed.
Interesting to note however, in doing a search for "travel" on the CA AG website, a ton of stories about unscrupulous travel agents comes up.
One other thing. And here is the big problem with the suit. Even though many of you think it is blurred...there is a clear separation between the RTA opportunity and the REP one. Remember an RTA does not bring in other RTAs. The REP does. The REP opportunity has no fees whatsoever. It is FREE. The RTA sells travel only. So, the part that costs money CAN NOT be considered a pyramid.PERIOD.
ReplyDeleteJosh--please provide a link to the lawsuit that you have "read".
ReplyDeleteOops, excuse me. I read the report. My mistake
ReplyDeleteThought so Josh. Rod--an audio clip from an opponent is certainly not valid as type of "proof".
ReplyDeleteIf that is the case, why aren't you taking Mark Ewing's recordings as gospel?
Lawsuits against AGs are common and goes with the territory.
Out of curiosity, what is YTB's and your position on gay marriage?
John,
ReplyDeleteCan you post the actual lawsuit that was attached to the press release?
And my vids are gospel. Haven't you ever heard of the gospel of Mark? (just kidding!)
ReplyDeleteWell, I guess it's not so surprising that the die hard YTBers would attack the AG rather than contemplate the possibility that maybe, just maybe, what YTB has been doing is unethical.
ReplyDeleteKate,
ReplyDeleteRod and I were the only 2 that posted. I didn't attack the AG. While I don't believe that YTB acts unethically....keep in mind there is a HUGE difference between unethical and illegal.
I'd love to know why the YTBers here are trying to deflect the conversation to that about gay marriage. Two different fish.
ReplyDeleteIt is amusing. No matter how much evidence that is presented the die hards will refuse to believe it. What will it take?
ReplyDeleteNow it is the AGs fault and he is vindictive. Was he an RTA that earned nothing as well and was deemed a loser and a quitter?
When will you realize that eithical people do not operate illagal companies. It is like the whole illegal immigrant debate--by definition they are breaking the law.
What is amazing is Rod is prepared to go to the convention, apologize for beiong a loser and quitting on YTB, find a new sponsor and plunk down another $500. EVEN IN THE FACE OF THIS NEWS!
ANd John, where did you get this scoop anyhow? I can't find it anywhere but here online. Hopefully it is a good source for you.
I remember some of Cruisingman's sources were wrong at times. Hoping that is not the case here
"Embargoed Until 10:00 p.m. Pacific Time on August 4, 2008"
ReplyDeleteMight explain why you can't find anything online at the moment.
It is on the La Times Website. I actually saw it there this morning before I got here.
ReplyDeleteAgain, I am not deflecting. I am simply saying that this, along with all the mud slung (if a word) here and other places is simply not true and doesn't hold water. IMO
LA Times:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.latimes.com/technology/la-fi-travelsuit5-2008aug05,0,1090098.story
John,
ReplyDeleteThat link isn't coming up for me.
"Even though many of you think it is blurred...there is a clear separation between the RTA opportunity and the REP one. Remember an RTA does not bring in other RTAs. The REP does. The REP opportunity has no fees whatsoever. It is FREE. The RTA sells travel only. So, the part that costs money CAN NOT be considered a pyramid.PERIOD."
ReplyDeleteHOWEVER, aren't there those that are both REPs and RTAs?
Don't RTA's earn money from those in their downline/pyramid?
I don't believe it is as clear as you make it out to be.
but but Coach said it was all ok
ReplyDeleteJoe,
ReplyDeleteTechnically, RTAs do not make money from the downline. There is a 10% override for power team leaders. But, those RTAs certainly wouldn't be complaining about paying 50 per month if they are earning overrides.
It is the REP status that generates the money from the downline.
This is down precisely to avoid this type of lawsuit and it would suprise me if the lawsuit isn't dropped.
If they are claiming misleading marketing and part of the court order would ask for misleading marketing to be eliminated the court will find that YTB itself is not misleading anyone.
YTB will certainly fight this.
ReplyDeleteLooks like the primary problem is the free Rep position.
Add all of the REPs into the equation and it dilutes down the average earnings of everyone.
Tens of thousands joined over the past few years, did nothing, and are still on the books.
As evidenced by John Frenaye and his loyal TTAs, ANYONE can join YTB for free.
It becomes part of the income disclosure.
Also the lag in travel commissions.
$13,000,000 in travel commissions for sales in 2007.
It comes for RTAs, not REPS.
New figures to be released soon will show greatly increased travel commissions.
To be averaged over the RTAs, not the REPS.
Josh--
ReplyDeleteI might disagree with the recent push by YTB to censor all of the blogs that they may be found responsible because they did nothing and did nothing to enforce their own policies--all in the name of recruiting.
How long before Coach says this..'We don't need the stinkin state of Callifornia! We don't need the CA AG!"?
ReplyDeleteI do have a question, now that they are being "investigated". Does this mean that YTB can no longer recruit in the state until this is resolved?
ReplyDelete"I'd love to know why the YTBers here are trying to deflect the conversation to that about gay marriage."
ReplyDeleteWell YTB pissed off the environmentalists with the Hunk of Foam that isn't biodegradable and now they are going to piss off the gays and lesbians with the comments about gay marriages.
YTB has a habit of pissing off people. The TTA's, suppliers etc. Who is left for YTB to piss off? And, the fact that people like Josh and Rod keep defending them is pretty pathetic to say the least.
I guess I can stop hearing the "name one time when YTB was investigated" comments and we can now get rid of the "YTB is publicly traded so that means they MUST be legal" argument.
ReplyDeleteNo deflection from here.
ReplyDeleteIt all comes down to the Rep position when reading Brown's lawsuit.
Brown is mixing the two together.
Like I mentioned above and in previous posts, the free REP position dilutes down the earning statements.
I am confident that YTB will fight this.
It will not be easy, but it is winnable.
If YTB had to choose an AG to go after, Brown is an easier target than some.
His reputation proceeds him.
"we can now get rid of the "YTB is publicly traded so that means they MUST be legal" argument."
ReplyDeleteJerry Brown now says that YTB is illegal.
That certainly does not make it a fact.
Brown also says that global warming will destroy the Earth within 25 years.
He will have to prove it in court.
I like YTB chances in this one.
"I am confident that YTB will fight this.
ReplyDeleteIt will not be easy, but it is winnable."
Yea and it is going to take a whole lot of money to do it. How long and how much money do you think Coach and the gang will put up? My guess is they will take the money and run...They don't give a damn about you Reps/RTA's but their own pocket book and skin....
And they will blame everyone from their mother to the people on this blog for the failure of YTB. I have seen this coming for quite sometime. And they won't own anyone a damn thing either.
ReplyDelete"New figures to be released soon will show greatly increased travel commissions.
ReplyDeleteTo be averaged over the RTAs, not the REPS."
I'm sure, but I am also sure that even with a proper averaging over the RTA population, that the statistics will show that the majority (60% or more) sell no travel at all, and the ones that do still earn very little per year.
Just look at the REP population - how many of them make any bonuses? If memory serves, its around 4%.
"How long and how much money do you think Coach and the gang will put up?"
ReplyDeleteAs much as it takes.
They will fight this one with everything they have.
The move toward franchising (that has been in the works for over a year) will certainly be in YTB's favor.
Add in the emphasis on travel training and events like the Funshine Convention.
YTB has tightened up compliance issues in the past few months.
Much more to go in that area, but I know for a fact that compliance will be front and center going forward.
Not in response to Jerry Brown, but as a corporate decision earlier this year.
How can YTB be tightening anything when your CEO doesn't even know how many people are in his own company?? They have lost control of the zombies and it's going to shut the company down.
ReplyDelete"I'm sure, but I am also sure that even with a proper averaging over the RTA population, that the statistics will show that the majority (60% or more) sell no travel at all, and the ones that do still earn very little per year."
ReplyDeleteAgain, it is the REP income that looks bad.
Because of the dilution.
The RTA income will look much better.
Two factors are involved.
The doubling of the RTA count in 2007 . . .
And the delay between travel BOOKED and commissions PAID.
No, the RTA income will not be that great averaged over 140,000 RTAs.
But it does not need to.
Let's take the average income of Mary Kay or Amway distributor over the millions that are on their books.
It will average out to a very small figure.
But that does not make it illegal.
I don't think the AG of California, or any state for that matter, brings suit against a company unless they think they can win. Obviously many YTBers in CA complained to the AGs office, the situation was looked into and the suit was filed. This did not happen overnight. Once again, YTB will have to be reactionary or pull out of Ca all together.
ReplyDeleteSo how long will it take for Coach to try to "assess" his minions to fight the Glorious Fight against The Evil Man?
ReplyDelete"As much as it takes.
ReplyDeleteThey will fight this one with everything they have."
OMG! You are too funny! Do you REALLY think they will put it all on the line for this? The jet? The mansion? The life-style they live? You really are deluded if you think they will give it all up for this.
"As much as it takes.
ReplyDeleteThey will fight this one with everything they have."
Which isn't much considering they just spent between 6-8 million on a piece of trash.
Eddie,
ReplyDeleteGo google Mike Nifong.
My bet is that there is a petition to the Courths to enter the company in to a forced receivership since the scam is so large.
ReplyDeleteCalifornia is the largest state for YTB and the scam affects so many people.
Once in receivership, it is no longer run by Coach, Scott and Kim, it is run by a court appointed person or group. While they sort it out they will not allow recruiting.
No recruiting, the Reps all leave because the downline keeps eroding. The sales of any RTA sites will be near impossible, and if they are sold, I want those Reps working for me as they are master salesmen!
So now we have no recruiting, no RTAs, and little to no travel sold (same as always).
But you have the issue of restitution of up to $2500 per count per person in California. Where does the money come from?
They will liquidate the assets. The jet, the house, the building, the cars, and mybe even the Statue of Liberty!.
I also suspect that this may take more of a federal swing as well. I have to believe that the SEC and whatever other entities are responsible are interested in the self-dealing when they "commissioned" a $8M statue with public money and filtered it to a private company owned and controlled by Tomers and Sorenson.
Hello...SEC, FTC, Are you listening---can you hear us now?
Better yet google "state drops suit"
ReplyDeleteThat will occupy you for hours with story after story of attorneys general dropping lawsuits.
Hey Joshie, time to find the lil ole wifey to find a part time job instead of sitting in the spa all day and kowtowing to a male chauvinist such as yourself...
ReplyDeleteI wonder if the AG will look into why a public company transfered (spent) $8 million dollars to a private company that is also owned by the same primary leaders... to have a styrofoam statue made. Does anyone else see any problems with this? $8 million is way too much money for a prop for a convention. Don't ya think?!!!
ReplyDeleteIf you divide $8 million by the number of RTAs in attendence.....
Maybe they will give the state of California the statue when they are done with it.... as part of the $25 million
Regardless, we should be in for some interesting blogs for awhile. RTAs --Please keep us posted on the convention!
Ah, Mike Nifong. An entirely different case in my opinion. He was a publicity seeking fool. I don't think the same of Mr. Brown. I also do not thing he would take the word of one person as reason to bring suit.
ReplyDeleteYou have got to be kidding?! Josh's wife sits in a spa all day??? He was on here crying he needs the money so she can stay at home and take care of the kids.
ReplyDeleteYou sell your soul to the devil so your wife can sit in the spa?
What is wrong with this picture?
"Maybe they will give the state of California the statue when they are done with it.... as part of the $25 million"
ReplyDeleteDon't think that will happen Mark since 1/2 the cities in CA have banned styrofoam. :-)
Geez, AT my wife went to a spa one day and I stayed home from work. Why the obsession with me kitty?
ReplyDeleteShow evidence of the $8 Million.
ReplyDeleteI don't believe that YTB paid even half of that for the statue.
Another wild claim on the internet.
Just like Mark Ewing being quoted in the LA Times . . .
"calls YourTravelBiz.com a "card mill" that provides travel agent identification but doesn't sell travel services."
Doesn't sell travel services??
WHAT?
How about $414 Million?
Typical media spin.
From the head-spinmeister.
The press usually gets it about 50% right.
Mix
ReplyDeleteYourtravelbiz.com does NOT sell travel. Remember there are two separate companies..or are they..well they are when it makes for the argument. ANd yes, ytb.com does indeed give out credentials--called the CRTA card so where is Mark incorrect.
The $6M or $8 M on the statue...please refer to WGN and the newspapers that reported it. I assume they are slightly more credible than you. But as has been shown time and time again YTB works on the fringe of legality and crosses over when it benefits them. So hiring themselves to build an overpriced statue seems like a grand scheme to me.
Inflate the price by 8 times
Have a pseudo bid where your own company "wins"
Filter the money to yourself.
Your private company makes $7M on an $8M project.
Donate the prop and write off $8 M as a deduction.
So, what did the Reps and RTAs that YTB cares so much about get out of that?
Let's see, 7 million dollars divided by three is $2.3 million each for Scott Coach and Kim. I hope you at least get a Christmas card from these guys!
Also, YTB RTAs sold 212m not 414m. VacationCentral agencies are responsible for the rest of the travel income. No one has a problem with VacationCentral.
ReplyDeletefor someone who is against YTB and the pyramid scams like them, it's a shame that the ads by google on this page are promoting secrets of getting rich with YTB.
ReplyDeleteTojano--this has been brought up before and I cannot control what ads are on here because they are representative of a pool of 300K Reps all from different domains.
ReplyDeleteAND, it has been hashed here before....they do tend to prove a pointabout the lengths the Reps and RTAs in YTB and other MLMs will go to recruit someone. Click on them and see the false claims.
They really are eye opening!
Welcome!
Well, why shouldn't John reap money back from you all clicking on those YTB ads. Kinda funny actually YTB payin John. LOL.
ReplyDeleteHey Joshie, I ain't obsessed with you honey. Other way around. You are obsessed with YTB and won't listen to reason or the truth. What's that say about you honey?
Political Idiots... YTB is a legal business opportunity... Just like any business -- some make money and others fail...
ReplyDeleteAs a retail travel agent that handles 4 Million annually personally, I am elated that someone is finally investigating YTB. Too many people think they can just "be" a travel agent without any knowledge, and so many think that our job is just that a job.
ReplyDeleteI was even approched by one of the "zombies" that tried to recruit me. When I started asking questions - not that I had any interest in their scam - she because very defensive and told me I didn't know anything about travel. Strange since I have been in the business for 29 years!! In any case, I went to their website - no phone contact - no nothing. It is a blatent scam and they MUST be shut down, not only for consumers that might try to purchase travel though these people, but also for the unsuspecting people just coming up with fools gold!
"Political Idiots... YTB is a legal business opportunity... Just like any business -- some make money and others fail..."
ReplyDeleteKeep drinking the Kool Aid Don. BTW-Did you have your attorney check out your contract with them? I would be protecting my interests. YTB sure as hell isn't going to worry about them.
I am so glad I logged on during my lunch. This is no surprise to me that it finally happened. I feel sorry for some of the RTAs but not many. I do not feel sorry for the people like Mixed or Doug or any of those oily characters because they knew this was and is a pyramid. They can deflect all they want but they are aware that they have screwed over a lot of people for their own gain.
ReplyDeleteI wonder why Mixed isn't at the convention? For someone that makes so much money, has so many RTAs in his downline, he sure has a lot of time to deflect and post here. Mixed: You're going down right along with YTB!
YTB and TRAVEL: OUT OF BUSINESS & BROKE!
YTB's stock is down 34%. It doesn't take long for the word to get out.
ReplyDeleteMixed: Remember when you were telling someone that they should work at Mickey D's or be a greeter at Walmart? I would say you will be wearing a paper hat or giving the "Welcome" very, very soon.
Well it's been almost 24 hours since this posted, so here goes:
ReplyDeleteJohn 1
OleScorekeeper 0
To Jack:
ReplyDeleteI enjoyed reading your comments. Seems we're like-minded travel business people, although it's questionable whether I shall remain in the business. My frustrations with companies like YTB and WorldVentures, (another zombie pyramid agency) along with an auto accident that left me in financial straits have combined to what seems to be the end of my travel career. It saddens me deeply, because I have a true passion for travel and the travel industry, and it's difficult for me to have to let it all go. Kinda' like the breakup of a long relationship, only this is harder for me. That would be because it's the only profession I've loved and enjoyed so much. You're right, many think that it's just a job. But to me it didn't feel that way. I looked forward to getting into the office and researching whatever destination I might be working on, and I'd stay way past 5:30pm just because...there was always more to be done. Unlike nearly all the other agents who instead began the clock-watch at 5:00pm, hoping no one would come in at the last minute to inquire about or book a vacation.
I also got roped into one of those recruiting presentations, for WorldVentures, and just like you, when I tried to ask questions the speaker got defensive and never did answer my questions. This WorldVentures proclaims $45million in 2007 sales, and over 70,000 "representatives & customers". I'm no certified accountant but that amounts to about $643 in average sales for each of those 70,000. When I worked as a retail agent I had average annual sales of around 1 - 1.5 million annually, without much effort, no advertising, the worst desk and worst space in the office. I was the top performing agent in the office too, by a big difference. When I tried to negotiate more commission, incentive for top performers usually, the owner instead stole as many of my client files as she could and pretended like it was something I did improperly. She stole those client files because she knew what a loss it would be to lose my clientele and their travel revenue. Many of those clients followed me to my home-based agency, but it was still difficult recovering and building my own agency. Enough of that sob-story.
Today, after reading about the California Attorney General suing YTB, I sent an email to a nearby retail agency, not just to inquire about working with their office, but more-so let them know that their owner and many of their staff are in such positions that they could help with their leadership and do something about WorldVentures here in Arizona. For that matter, WorldVentures claims to have representatives in all 50 states. So how about a class-action suit, not just a single state, but nationwide. Or there will be other professional travel agents, like myself, forced to find a new career, much as they hate to, for a combination of reasons. I happen to have alot to offer to the travel industry, as I'm also a writer, with a great sense of humor. I write travel-related "jingles" that can be used to promote travel to all kinds of destinations. Maybe some day I'll find a company that has an interest in such a thing. If not, then it's all just more fool's gold. At least I've still got my sense of humor, and I always will!
Peace & Blessings to you,
Marian Nagel (aka Cookie Lombardo)
Thank God for chocolate, it'll help to lift my spirit!
YTB will be just fine..
ReplyDeleteKeep drinking the Kool Aid Don. BTW-Did you have your attorney check out your contract with them? I would be protecting my interests. YTB sure as hell isn't going to worry about them.
ReplyDeleteNot a problem... the cool aid....
Hi
ReplyDeleteI am a travel agent and I did sign up to join YTB a year ago.
Slowly through the months managing the business at my own pace, I made some travel commission worth close to $2K in the last 5 months and provided an effort close to 4 hours of my time. All that would not be possible with out the YTB network.
I have no complains about YTB except that I wonder what is going to happen with my part-time business if YTB would be shut down. Does the Atty General provide me my monthly commission.
I sell mainly travel and hotel to various cities. I have not recruited any a would be “travel agent” to operate a travel business to join YTB.
Honestly, I was happy that I got recruited, paid $500 and the monthly fee but all that expenses I recovered when I made sales and eventually received my commissions.
So what does the Atty General would do to us who sells travel through the YTB network and its affiliates.
This month, as part of my expansion, I am trying to get more travel rates and advertise these rates so I could get more sales and eventually more commission but what future does lie for me out there if this Atty General (who knows nothing better to do), whose aim is to shut down YTB operation. Amongst us who sell travel through YTB network, what is the Atty General's recommendation - which network should we go to obtain cheaper rates?
It is so obvious that we YTB RTAs can not operate a travel company as huge as Expedia or Travelocity without staying competitive. Could the Atty General provide us something of equal travel business advantage since the AG thinks that YTB is a pyramid scam and intending the YTB operation to be shut down?
Join a better host, pay less, and earn more.
ReplyDeletePretty simple really.
"Could the Atty General provide us something of equal travel business advantage since the AG thinks that YTB is a pyramid scam and intending the YTB operation to be shut down?"
ReplyDeleteYou have got to be kidding! You join a sleaze bag outfit like YTB and you expect CA to just give you another business? Have you never heard of Buyer Beware? If it sounds to good to be true it usually is? Or, how about this one doing your homework AND investigating the company you choose to give your money to? A simple Google on YTB would have told you plenty. If you were naive enough to join YTB without checking them out and doing your homework you get what you deserve. AND, know one held a gun to your head and made you give them money. CA isn't going to give you squat. Grow up.
Eddie is right. Join another host. What a freakin idiot!
Oh and Ingrid, the AG doens't think YTB is a pyramid. It is.
ReplyDeleteCould the Atty General provide us something of equal travel business advantage since the AG thinks that YTB is a pyramid scam and intending the YTB operation to be shut down?"
ReplyDeleteIngrid--you are looking for equal value? Might I suggest welfare or food stamps. You likely will earn a lot more utilizing those programs.
Ingrid, if you really want to be in travel, find a reputable host and get some training. Don't expect the AG to find another alternitive for you. That's not his job.
ReplyDeleteWell, it is just California...this YTBer COULD move if she wants to stick with YTB. I would not suggest Florida, but North Dakota might be a good bet.
ReplyDeleteI noticed that this forum is downright judgmental when it comes to YTB and whoever sympathises with YTB.
ReplyDeleteYou see I was not trapped into YTB marketing strategies. I sold plane travel and hotel reservations and made $2K commission from it for a total of just 4 hours input in 5 months time. My input was only 4 hours in 5 months because I have a full time job which requires 8-10 hours of my time. And for your info, most YTBers are doing travel business on part-time basis. So if you see that a lot of YTB members have not sold travel, its because these agents are just the same as me, giving time to their business at their own pace. Why would we quit our full time job when our part-time income do not equal to our full time income? Its all self explanatory.
What I do not understand is why is it called a pyramid scam by OTHERS envious attitude towards YTB when it is not. It is a business just like any business.
For those who told me to have more training, well I do not need training. I am in the IT industry and travel business is what I do in my free time. I see a potential income in this business but if my YTB network gets shut down, that means I am losing my would be future commissions.
And for those who are judgmental, you have no idea who you are talking to, firstly back in the time when I was in my early twenties, I was a flight attendant of an international airlines (note of the word airlines), ie I worked with two international airlines. And have been to different parts of the world. I may probably know more about travel than any of these condescending and judgmental anti- YTB. I do know about galileo and other software and I do understand what is the associated cost to own this system. Travel is not a new thing to me and so that is why I joined YTB coz I do NOT need a training.
And if any of you gonna suggest to google about YTB, anyone could say negative of anyone in google. All you have to do is have your own website and say negative things as much as you want, google or other search engine would pick it up.
So if any of you think that YTBers are naive, you may as well think that you guys are dumb. There may be people out there that are naive and would not understand about YTB marketing strategy, however, the vast majority of those who joined YTB are there for networking purposes, not just travel but also business other than travel.
So why would I join a better host when I already joined YTB.
It seems that the intent of these people who are anti-YTB are that their business is not improving as much as YTB that they have the time to distract Others.
Lastly, I am in my last year of Law School, so I do understand what is fraud.
When I joined YTB, nothing in the presentations that I have attended represents fraud.
YTB presenters clearly laid out all the compensation figures. It may look like "great" compensation for others, but anyone would have to note, that without putting effort on the business, you do not get commission. There may be presentations that travel agents have bought porshce and earning thousands of income but also YTB clearly stated that to make such kind of money, an agent should make an effort.
NO pain NO gain period.
Before I go, I have to remind you that I made travel commission by selling travel and have not made commission through recruiting.
The reason why I did it because I know how to sell travel just as I know how to get IT jobs out there.
So anti-YTB, get over it.
You ANTI-YTBs probably could not get a job other than being a travel agent....tsk tsk tsk..
Ingrid--you act surprised that there are people on here judgmental of YTB and the MLM model.
ReplyDeleteJust to clarify things up for you; and I realize you are an IT professional and all, but please scroll to the top of the blog and let me know if the title has changed since last year? It should say MLMs and Travel: A Bad Mix. Does it?
And if you look at the URL, it should say notravelmlms.blogspot.com. That is one word for No Travel MLMs.
If you are looking for an everything is ok Coach is calling the play agree with me and never dissent and I won't allow you to comment or have a thought on your own type blog, you can type in http://travel-pro.blogspot.com
Here is my comment to your blog:
ReplyDeleteIndeed the title is MLM and Travel a bad mix but what makes you think I am MLM? You assumed that an agent who signed up for YTB sells only YTB travel?
I sold travel from non YTB networks as well. No need to be genious to know all the companies in the travel industry. Its all out there displayed in the public.
Here's your quote from above "Travel like an insider! Discounted travel! Free trips! Upgrades galore! See why this is simply not true. Explore why MLM companies are not only a bad idea for the travel industry, but perhaps one of the leading indicators of the decline of the travel industry! "
YTBs another marketing logo is "turn your vacation into paycation". I think JOhn you missed that one.
For a naive person, it can easily be interpreted into something glamour, earning money while on vacation? ( is it really true?; one would deely think perhaps)
That YTB statement was just a mere invitation to treat. That's a basic marketing strategy just that YTB did it so well...
After hearing that "turning vacation into paycation, I did not believe that it would be the case but I do believe it is possible and I will explain it below.
How many advertisements out there you see everyday from TV, newspaper to internet advertising that entice readers to come check the products being advertised?
Go figure.
My point is whatever the marketing strategy of any company, marketing and customer relation are used to sell products. Any words or phrase used in the marketing should not be taken as "face value". Marketing techniques are being deployed to make profit. Each company have their own marketing strategy and as long as you are within the law of the nation, no one would ever stop you.
NOw let's go to MLM or card mills. Honestly from the beginning I did not understand this term, all I know when a customer signed, that customer understood what he / she is getting into. If it turns out what he/she bought is not profitable (as in the case of other card mill members), then too bad. After all no one ever put a gun for these people to buy the card mill.
Secondly, there is no such thing as free travel. Have you ever heard of free FAM trips, even when I was a flight attendant, I have never taken a trip for FREE and airline employees can only travel at certain time of the year. If the airline employees could not travel for free, how much more for the travel agent? This fact is known to an ordinary traveler but unfortunately some travel agent(s) tried to make the travel agent profession something more glamorous than the first class travellers.
Thirdly I disagree with MLMs are bad for the travel industry. The biggest reason why there is a decline in the travel industry is not due to the presence of the MLM etc but the travel industry giants like Expedia and similar companies. These big companies operates like a monopoly. I firmly believe that when you have small travel agencies operating, the enterpreneurial business is back on the street and gaining grounds to fight with giant firms. ALL travel agents have to do are to employ better communication and customer service skills.
I have workmates who would rather book travel not through me but through these giant websites. The reason being, coz it is much easier than doing so, virtually no mistakes, much faster and no hassles of waiting and at the same time, for protection of the travellers identity and confidential information.
I too would not rather accept the booking request from my workmates except if it is an overseas travel. The reason why coz US airline gives only $3 as a minimum commission? Even a 12 yr old do not want to work for that money.
If I were to ask you, what was it like during the old times when traveller book travel through the travel store? I have heard so much horrifying stories, not to mention the ridiculous customer service being implemented. With the introduction of the internet, the travel slowly goes into a "collapse". This is very much evident in the great USA.
You go to other countries, travel industry is still predominantly controlled by real travel agents and not online travel like Expedia and the like.
You can not blame MLM as a contributing factor. Blame it on your politicians, legislators, and dont forget your lobbyist. They are the biggest factor why the travel industry is declining.
And before I forget, here is my explanation why a vacation would turn into paycation. You see the lawmakers in this country allows to write-off some taxes every year. A travel agent who owns its own agency could always turn that vacation into paycation by charging the vacation expenses as tax deductions.
But do you really think MLMs or YTBers have their vacation turned into paycation? If I am going to survey each member, I can guarantee that only a handful had their vacation turned into paycation. The reason being, it is just not possible to do so for so many reasons like job commitment, cost (even though to be claim as tax deductions) and the economy.
I myself even if I can afford I would not be able to travel and turn that vacation into funpaycation because a full time job is always been a priority. With this economy, those who have full time job are clinging to keep their job and that funpaycation is the last thing on a worker's mind.
Unless these travel industry have millions to give away?
Human beings are very much capable of making mistakes and NOT always able to deliver the required standard due to a lot of factors associated with it. Why do you think we humans are slowly being replaced by automation and robotics?
I am sorry if I did not agree with the others. I am simply implying what is the truth. Who are we to judge what is ethical business and unethical business? How many unethical business out there on the streets you see everyday, from government offices to private sectors, the housing industry for example, at least you can thank those manipulators and the declining dollar for helping USA economies to sink quicker.
And to conclude, our world is a survival world. We do whatever it takes to be profitable and to survive as long as we stay within what the law dictate us what to do.
And I hope no readers in here would assume that I am pro YTB coz I am not, but I definitely see no harm in YTB business. If YTB would be shut down one day, there would always be a new kind of travel business, a new kind of MLM to sign up and a new way to travel.
Ingrid, your very first post contradicts this one. Let me refresh your memory since in a matter of 13 hours you went from defending YTB vecause you work with them to not being a fan vecause you book travel elsewhere:
ReplyDeleteHi
I am a travel agent and I did sign up to join YTB a year ago.
Slowly through the months managing the business at my own pace, I made some travel commission worth close to $2K in the last 5 months and provided an effort close to 4 hours of my time
"Secondly, there is no such thing as free travel. Have you ever heard of free FAM trips, even when I was a flight attendant,"
ReplyDeleteNo kidding Ingrid! The problem is the Majority of your fellow YTB people are ALL OVER the internet promoting FREE Travel, travel like an insider, big discounts, take huge tax deductions on travel blah blah blah. It's out there. We have it all documented. And, as to the AG filing suit they just don't decide one day to go after someone. They have been screwing around with YTB for 18 months to get them in compliance.
If you can sell travel. Great. There are a TON of great hosts out there who are not breaking SOT laws and are not pyramids. Montrose Travel in your state is one. I am sure with your experience and your actual selling of travel you will have no trouble finding one. You will get a better commission split and be respected.
But to come on here and blast us when this is indeed a MLM and Travel don't mix board is ludicrous. If you don't agree don't read. But, alot of us do. Because YTB has whored up the travel industry. Read the Pyramid Scheme blog link to the right if you don't understand. But, don't come on here with a chip on your shoulder. And, frankly as a former airline employee I am disappointed in you that you turned your back on TTA's and went to the dark side.
Oh, and as to CA giving you another business. You can't be that dense. Isn't going to happen. Get out of YTB and find a legit host. Quit expecting people to take care of you. You made a bad choice getting involved with YTB. You need to fix it not the CA AG.
http://www.pathonline.travel/How_to_choose_a_host_agency.asp
Wow very interesting the comments here. Well as a YTB RTA on-line travel owner and as well a REP building a group of organized people to SELL TRAVEL. I look forward to the scrutiny and the results of the CA AG investigation. I think people like John are needed to be the apposing voice to the success that our company has experienced and is offering to all who choose to partake in the opportunity.
ReplyDeleteI guess I have a few questions:
1.) Is there a license needed to be a seller of travel?
2.) How much training in travel is required to be a legitimate travel agent?
3.) Does Expedia, Orbitz, Travelocity, or Pticeline train each of their customers to be a travel agent as they book on their on-line websites?
4.) Is McDonalds, KFC, or any franchise a pyramid scheme or scam since every franchise owner pays a monthly franchise fee off of thier gross income to the parnet company who allows them to use thier name and systems to sell more of their branded products?
5.) How many agencies in CA did $212 million dollars or more in 2007, for that fact how many traditional travel agents/agencies in the U.S. did $212 million dollars in travel in 2007?
6.) How many realtors, insurance agents, or other licensed professionals actually receive credentials but do not go out and work their craft and make no money?
7.) Will your travel agency hire me andwhat are the quotas and requirements for travel sales that i need to meet to earn a paycheck or is it all commission based for an employee of a traditional travel agency?
8.) Does a traditional travel agency owner earn a commisssion if any of his/her employees use thier travel services and a commission is paid?
There really is no need to debate I just want to read your answers and look forward to the learning.
Star Team-If you were a REAL travel agent you would know the answer to those questions. IF you read the TRADES, you would know. If you had one ounce of training or education you would know. There are tons of resources out there where you can learn and find out. Problem is you and your fellow YTB'rs want to take the easy way out and sit on your ASSES and do nothing or put any effort into learning.
ReplyDeleteAgain, you know nothing about the travel industry or want to learn.
Shoo...
Wow, it appears that YTB is falling down left and right if you are unaware of these answers. I will do my best. My answers in bold.
ReplyDeleteI guess I have a few questions:
1.) Is there a license needed to be a seller of travel?
Yes, in some states. Not in others. Do you have yours? What about your bonding and E&O?
2.) How much training in travel is required to be a legitimate travel agent?
It varies, but certainly more than the recruitment traingin YTB proivides at the Certified Referring Travel Agent Training Classes and certainly more than the conference calls by Carnival to update you on the product.
3.) Does Expedia, Orbitz, Travelocity, or Pticeline train each of their customers to be a travel agent as they book on their on-line websites?
I like this question. The answer is no. However, they do employ a team of qualified agents for the clients that do book travel on those sites. YTB offers zero help to the consumer once they are on an RTA booking site. THe best they can do is to call a vendor who will likely not help them because the booking belongs to YTB
4.) Is McDonalds, KFC, or any franchise a pyramid scheme or scam since every franchise owner pays a monthly franchise fee off of thier gross income to the parnet company who allows them to use thier name and systems to sell more of their branded products?
No they are not. That is called overhead. The focus is on selling the product. YTB focuses on recruiting. And to be hnest, if you are paying $50 a month to use the YTB name, I feel it is WAY overpriced.
5.) How many agencies in CA did $212 million dollars or more in 2007, for that fact how many traditional travel agents/agencies in the U.S. did $212 million dollars in travel in 2007?
I am glad you are being honest with YTBs numbers. Most of the RTAs are still screaming about $414M which we all know is not the real number. I don't know the answer, I am sure you can find that out from ARC or ASTA or some other industry association.
6.) How many realtors, insurance agents, or other licensed professionals actually receive credentials but do not go out and work their craft and make no money?
I know travel. So I cannot comment on that, but I imagine it is a lot. But then again they are not recruiting based entities.
7.) Will your travel agency hire me andwhat are the quotas and requirements for travel sales that i need to meet to earn a paycheck or is it all commission based for an employee of a traditional travel agency?
Not on your life so there is no real reason to continue to answer the other questions. Unfortunately your association with YTB precludes me from hiring you just as it precludes you from selling Royal Caribbean, Celebrity, Azamara, Perillo, and others. Your association also prevents you from getting an IATAN card. Seems the management is not working too hard for you--the professional travel agent huh?
8.) Does a traditional travel agency owner earn a commisssion if any of his/her employees use thier travel services and a commission is paid?
It all depends on the policy of the agency. Personally, they can buy at net and I give them bal 100% of the commission the agency earns. Cannot speak for others, but I also will say that I do not do that for my ICs and also employees and ICs need to produce to continue their affiliation.
Here’s my comment
ReplyDeleteStating an opinion is not defending YTB, only a lawyer can defend YTB. Whatever I said in the post, it was all my experience with YTB and my testimony for YTB, and nothing else. I was stating a fact and not just some hearsay.
I never stated that YTBers are banned from booking any form of travel elsewhere. Any YTB administrator could witness that I book travel through YTB and also book travel through other travel operators, claimed commission through YTB’s ARC number. All I did was book, had my client paid all that was booked but I have not done any administrative work which dealing with chasing for my commission from various vendors. The moment I sent out forms booked NOT through the YTB website, YTB team did all the job for me. I booked hotels directly to the hotel itself and booked flights directly to the international airline itself and again YTB team chased my would be commission for me. All I did was wait for my check which unfailingly comes in my mail.
YTB never bar anyone to book directly through the vendor and the easier part, we may do a little filing up forms but the bulk of the hard work is done by YTB. As far as I understand how YTB did their business, YTB leverage the manpower through recruiting more members, have the main office do all the deals and chase and that is the only way that a travel agency owner could cut down the cost substantially.
And I am proud and ready to stand and be a witness because I have proof for all the transactions I did. Oh and not just that, YTB’s website do all the sales journal for us, so where can you find such a system? Hiring an IT professional cost a ton of money and that does not include the expenses associated with operating an office.
So please do not jump into conclusion. You now seemed like ill-informed about businesses out there. There are many businesses operates in the same platform. I could explain to you more what YTB could do but it is not my style. Every person or business owner have their own way of getting sales.
AT said……….
ReplyDeleteThe problem is the Majority of your fellow YTB people are ALL OVER the internet promoting FREE Travel, travel like an insider, big discounts, take huge tax deductions on travel blah blah blah. It's out there. We have it all documented. And, as to the AG filing suit they just don't decide one day to go after someone. They have been screwing around with YTB for 18 months to get them in compliance.
Here’s my comment for you AT,
If you have taken a marketing course, the basic principle would explain to you that such a statement of freebies are an “invitation to treat”.
Marketing moguls mobilize such techniques and it is not only YTB who does such tactics, check out all these coupons and pamphlets you get in the mail, they all have kind of “misleading” phrase on their ad. It has something to do with creativity of the marketing person and I again reiterate that there is no harm with whatever YTB ads because before a would be member pays the signing up fee, that would be member have to go through the details of what the business is all about.
AT, you assumed that YTBers are not respected? Get a life! I am going to remind you that majority of YTBers are part-time and the majority of YTBers have full time job. At the end of the day the YTB members are also a customer – so what are you talking about. YTbers do business on the side and that means after work or when they get a break from work. I book travel when I get a lunch break and that’s how I keep my business going.
AT, you just made it sound that booking travel is so difficult thing to do that an agent need rigourous training. I am going to prove to you that even a 5th grader can do it. AT, if you had to go through a lot of training then I could assume that you must be technically impaired.
“AT said..
And, as to the AG filing suit they just don't decide one day to go after someone. They have been screwing around with YTB for 18 months to get them in compliance.”
You know AT anyone can make complaints. And I can guarantee that I could make complaints to anyone right now and any lawyer would be representing me as long as I have the $$$. I see that CA tried to claim millions as “compensation” and who do you think any lawyer would turn that down? The lawyer(s) by now are anticipating their percentage. You see AT just like any business, anyone would jump if there is money to it. What’s the lawyers guarantee that the case would succeed? Again, just like anyone, you would not know until you try.
AT you need to more about business in general …not just travel, but legal business as well..
Yes I do understand that this is MLM and Travel don’t mix. So I am both and therefore I can mix with MLM and real travel agent and even airline professionals. I am stating a fact, and if you go scroll up, most of these anti-YTB responses were getting personal. Someone even said that I get “welfare or food stamps”..whoever that person is I am pretty sure he/she makes 7 figures a year but I wondered too, what would he be doing assisting travel when it is a declining industry?
I would never say that to anyone to be on welfare unless I am certain that person is unemployed. It is downright judgmental to say such a thing without even knowing who the person is. It reminds me with one of the pest in our society who are trying to be high caliber but in reality that person is fullacrap.
AT you just don’t get the point that business is business and please don’t say you are disappointed about flight attendant choosing the dark side, what if I tell you, you are a MONSTER who blast to people who are busy minding their own business. So why don’t you just mind your own business and make your travel agency get the edge against the giant firms out there. Who are you to judge that I turned my back on TTA, what is your proof? You have none. ALL what you are good at is criticizing and despising the people who wants to make a buck.
Lastly AT, if you wanna stay competitive, respect anyone even if you hated the profession of that person. Who knows one day, the one you hated could be your biggest customer.
When I joined YTB, not only that I was able to own my own travel agency but through that network I was able to make a deal for IT jobs and about to enter another business beyond travel.
Ingrid-Anyone can point someone to a website to point and click and take their money. It is the actual servicing of the clients and destination knowledge. Do you know the difference between MCO and MCO? Which countries require Visas and how to get them? I could go on and on. You know basic stuff. That's it.
ReplyDeleteAs to your comment about YTB'rs being part time. There are a lot of TTA's that do it part-time also. If you want to go that route I don't have a problem with it get some training beyond the rep training and whatever crap YTB trains you.
As to the welfare comment it has been proven that YTB recruits those with lower socio economic status and little or no income. They are easily manipulated and by into the dream.
Again, go to the PATH website and read about host agencies. Most will do your back office stuff and keep track of your commissions.
As to YTB, IMHO, it's a sleazy company run by sleaze bags. They have no credibility in the industry nor do any of the top executives have any travel knowledge. If you want to associate with a company like that be my guest but don't whine when the CA AG comes down on them and other states do to. YTB has flaunted rules and regulations for a long time and now it's time to pay the piper.
I see no point in arguing or trying to convince you any longer. Go to the Path site. I put the link up there and do your homework. There are hosts that will fit your needs. As I said Montrose in CA is very well respected and liked. Talk to them and a few others.
AT, I can definitely say you are born judgmental, rude and mean. Not only that you are judging and asking me about MCO and visas when you even have no idea of how many countries I have already lived from Europe to Asia to Australia (excluding countries I have visited). I dont want to brag about it but hey I have worked and lived overseas for a long time, educated in USA and Overseas as well. Getting a visa? Is that so difficult? You have no idea how many PR visas in my passport. Just shows how ignorant you are - you immediately jump into the conclusion that you are dealing with a person who has never been overseas.
ReplyDeleteYou do not need to tell me who are the travel operators and links. I dont need information about travel operations n'all. Before you make any judgment again, check your own real background and education before you post. Then you can blast me but before you that, make sure you wont be embarrassed.
You do not need to convince me. If you read carefully my post, slowly I was giving details of my background. And again I will remind you, I am in the IT industry, I go out and get IT jobs as my full time job, I am in my last year of law school, I do travel business on the side, have other business engagement as well and before I forget I was once a flight attendant for two international airline (not US airlines who are facing bankcruptcy). I have long and varied work experience and travel is just one of them. I have travelled both for work and for leisure.
And you are saying I should get a training, heck, I can even build a system but why would I do that when there is a cheap one out there ready for use and with maintenance and administrative staff.
Its like why go american labor when you can get a cheap labor overseas (go figure).
This is how business survive nowadays. It is either do or die.
What certificate do you hold to be a travel agent? Do you need a degree to be a travel agent? Travel agent's job would surely be replaced as the more the technology progress. So no matter what context you put it into, YTB have a good concept of travel. And I am not tellign you this to convince you to join YTB. I am telling you this as a fact and you can stay whoever you do your travel transaction with.
You should get the picture by now. Again, I do not see any harm the way YTB does business, as I do not see any harm, why a lot of american jobs are going overseas. Lastly how many businesses out there still operating with the same platform as YTB (if you call it pyramid scam)? So why the AG did not sue those companies and why sue now and sue just YTB?
Judiciary should be impartial but this AG has a recod of his own.
"AT said....As to the welfare comment it has been proven that YTB recruits those with lower socio economic status and little or no income. They are easily manipulated and by into the dream."
You are absolutely wrong. Again I do not blame you for being so judgmental, you assumed YTBers have low socio-economic background? Why do you think YTBers are signing-up and doing it as part-time - or do at your own pace? Because YTB members have full time jobs and working in diverse profession. So you saying a friend who recruited me to join YTB have a low income, you have no clue. In fact, the one who recruited me owned several houses in California, Nevada, Houston and New York. Why do you think I signed up? YTB members are not just signing up for travel reasons, YTB members are there signing up for a bunch of networking reasons beyond travel.
Ingrid---a tip on blogs. Get to the point. Long comments that were obviously cut and pasted from some other source without paragraphs and proper spacing are hard to read and often ignored.
ReplyDeleteNow were you saying something?
Ingrid-I seriously doubt you have as much training and education as you claim you do. I have never met someone in YTB who actually told the truth.
ReplyDelete"I dont need information about travel operations n'all." As to this comment the link I gave you was for HOST agencies NOT travel operations. You claim you are so educated yet you don't know the difference.
You asked what you should do since CA is going to probably shut YTB down. I and several others told you to find a legitimate host agency to work with. A lot of people do do that part time.
As to my education & certification probably more than yours especially after reading your comments.
AT you surely do sound ill-informed.
ReplyDeleteYou think travel operation do not mean travel host and so therefore you do not think that host agencies do not sell travel at all.
Travel operation just in case you do not know, means anything related to travel, it could be cruise, air, bus, train, database for travel, etc etc..it is all related to travel.
And so what does the host agency sell? Go figure dumbo!
You have never met someone educated in YTB? - it is because you already judge whoever you met based on the appearance (he/she doesn't have to be YTB).
And that is probably you are dying to get YTB be shut down because your business is not going anywhere.
Definitely it is not YTB's fault why you are not getting much business. It is because you need an attitude adjustment.
As for my education and work experience, I do not need to convince anyone. If YTB get shut down one day (which I hope it would not), I just simply book travels from travel operators who had dealt with YTB. After all if I bring business, would I be turned down?
Remember no business = no commission.
You said that real travel agent knows about the visa. Let me correct you that fact, any ordinary traveller, especially those who have worked overseas, knows how to get a visa.
Based on your statement making visa/MCO knowledge such a big deal, you made laugh.
Here's my suggestion, travel more, or get a job overseas, it may widen your understanding about travel.
Ingrid--you could certainly purchase travel from any of the vendors currently working with YTB but as a CONSUMER. SO no commission to you, and yes they would love to have your business. But if you hope to earn any commission, you will need to register with them and show proof of affiliation with a host, consortia or franchise if applicable, proof of a legitimate business (EIN number and business checking account), proof of a place of business, an IATA number or a CLIA number registered to you or your host, and more. So it really is not that easy!
ReplyDeleteExcellent!!
ReplyDeleteA Great Debate!!
There is alot of emotion in the answers I read form the two parties who chose to answer.
My exoerience has been one focused on training in the Travel industry and how to market that travel for my clients.
I have also decided to participate in the marketing as well because wherether you want to believe it or not many people working together gets alot more results than one person doing it all by themselves.
i have done some research an Ms. Kitty how much travel did you sell last year?
How much in Travel commsisions did your company pay to its employees last July. My company paid out 750,000 in August they paid $1,000,000 in travel commissions not marketing commissions, and in September that number rose to 1.25 million in travel commissions paid out ... what did you get form your business? I recieved my commission checks along with thousands of other "fools" "sheep" "idots" that you prostelitize about... i think you make great points about those who give false information and those of my YTb brothers and sisters who do not respect the travel industry and business as such.. but for as many false and deceptive practices that you claim YTB is guilty of I can name just as many from traditional agents offering "to good to be true deals" to unsuspecting middle class Americans. What I 'm saying is there are good and bad in every industry and business and as "TRUE PROFESSIONALS" we should look toward solutions and improving our business. YTB opporates in a differnet paradigm than traditional travel services but it is allowing everyday people the ability to dream and go for the goals they have set for themselves and learn the wonders of the world in the process. Our TEAM and orgnaization has always looked down on those giving misleading information and we focus on trainign and personal dvelopment.
How many hours a week do you and yoru coworkers put into personal development and helping others outside of booking trips?
John
ReplyDeleteYou are one foolacrap.
You think that YTBers do not have EIN or business licence? You think YTBers do not have association to other host? You think that YTBERs do not have checking account?
And you think that YTBers do not have CLIA or IATA?
As I mentioned earlier, if you want to keep your business, do not even try to judge a person you know or do not know by its appearance.
Now for your info, I joined YTB a year ago. First sales occurred in Oct 2007. Six months after joining YTB, got my EIN, DBA and local business licence (as a home based business), applied for CLIA online, then so on and so forth.
YTB encourages these steps to its members, it may not be an instant application but it does help its member get memberships. Though YTB do not make it mandatory to apply for CLIA and IATA but it does encourage all members apply, to sell travel, to at least to start selling $2500 worth of travel to be able to work with YTB.
As for EIN and other business paperwork, it is known to an ordinary person that if you operate a business, you must have a business licence.
So John get a LIFE.
You think a real travel agent have more training than us YTBers. Before I joined YTB, I booked a flight for London Gatwick, but a dumb travel agent put me on London Heathrow, the reason why she did it, because its the only airport she knows that exist in London, despite I having told her to book it London Gatwick.
And I agree with Star, there are good and bad in every type of business, just as there are good and bad travel agents.
Lastly, if I were in your shoes, you should stop making statements that are unqualified and unwarranted. It is making you look "foolish".
Ingrid--you seem to have the foolish market covered!
ReplyDeleteSo are you saying that you operated your business for six months without having the proper legal licenses and paperwork to do so? Your statement says that.
You are aware that IATA tossed YTB on its ear aren't you? If you have an IATAN card from YTB it is a fraud.
And is YTB aware that you are operating with other hosts as well? Something tells me they are not. Let me know your RTA number and I can make sure they know. But YTB may not care if you are recruiting enough people.
As to the confusion of LGW and LHR, I was not there, but from your ability to form a reasoned response, it may be possible the agent gave you exactly what you asked for in the first place.
To the foolish & the not-so-foolish,
ReplyDeleteIt's always best to do your homework, and even better to remember to practice interpersonal ethics. A way of treating others so more messages can be shared. Think positive, keep your positive vibration up, lift others up and help them to search for truth and the message that they have for you.
The following information is directly from the U.S. Department of Treasury, Internal Revenue Service website.
Do I Need an Identification Number?
You must have a taxpayer identification number to operate your business. This is generally your social security number, or an individual taxpayer number. However if you have employees, and in some other circumstances, you will need an Employer Identification Number.
Do You Need an EIN?
You will need an EIN if you answer "Yes" to any of the following questions.
Do you have employees?
Do you operate your business as a corporation or a partnership?
Do you file any of these tax returns: Employment, Excise, or Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms?
Do you withhold taxes on income, other than wages, paid to a non-resident alien?
Do you have a Keogh plan?
Are you involved with any of the following types of organizations?
* Trusts, except certain grantor-owned revocable trusts, IRAs, Exempt Organization Business Income Tax Returns
* Estates
* Real estate mortgage investment conduits
* Non-profit organizations
* Farmers' cooperatives
* Plan administrators
So, for those that don't already know:
If you do not have employees, other than yourself, and operate as sole proprietor, obtaining an EIN is not an option. Your income will be reported using your SSN or TIN (Social Security Number or Taxpayer Identification Number). The IRS doesn't want or need the extra work, nor do you!
A business license is required of anyone conducting business and is not the same, nor related to an EIN. Business license requirements can vary depending on the type of business, such as:
- Service oriented businesses- Business, Occupational and Professional License (ie:travel agencies/home-based travel agents)
- Businesses with a tax liability - Transaction Privilege (Sales) & Use Tax License (are you collecting sales tax?)
And John is correct, at least as far as I've ever known or dealt with in host agencies. Once registered or affiliated with a host, there's usually a contract involved. Host agencies do not want their contractors using other hosts, which is one reason they're willing to allow the independent contractor to use the host's IATA number when making reservations with suppliers. Agents help build sales revenue with the suppliers and that can lead to increased commission levels for the host and the agent.
For that matter, obtaining a CLIA number or a TRUE IATA number (or in the future a TRIPS number )would mean that you don't need a host and are entitled to 100% of the commission on your bookings. Obtaining your own number is fairly simple, though not inexpensive. Be sure to have a "Business Checking" account, not just a personal checking account. And carrying some business insurance, like E&O is a good idea as well.
Why mess with the likes of YTB, WorldVentures or Traverus? Why mess with any company that has state attorney generals suing them and looking to shut them down? Is that the kind of company you really want to be associated with? There are far too many good host agencies out there to choose from if you're not comfortable on your own or want that back-up for commission tracking, etc.
If you really want to be recognized as a professional, then make sure to select associations & affiliations that honor that. Then you'll have no problem being treated as such. That applies to any industry professional, not just the travel agent industry. I happen to be involved in a personal injury suit against against the other party. I'm sure glad I chose a professional, well-recognized attorney in my area, because I'm confident that he and his associates will win my case. With the years of experience among he and his staff, that's the kind of representation I like. Travelers should expect the same from a professional travel counselor as well.
Peace & Blessings,
Cookie Lombardo
To John,
ReplyDeleteSorry about the length of my last posting, but it has some good facts to share. And after all that data I only had one typo, against against! At least it's easily readable.
Hey John
ReplyDeleteAs a suggestion, please review the IRS website and Marian already posted it for you.
As for selling travel prior to obtaining a business license, yes you can do so, provided you are a sole employee. However when you file your tax return, you have to include the 1099 form and Schedule C.
For your info, there is nothing illegal from the steps I mentioned. Part of my job is dealing with independent contractors and honestly I have handled this paperworks more than 1000 times in the last 5 years and no IRS agent come knocking our company door (btw, this is not a small company). In addition, we have CPAs to guide us should we do anything wrong.
Secondly, yes YTB allows all their members to do transaction to another host(s). That's what I like about YTB, but of course, when you claim for commission and have used YTB's CLIA, IATA or ARC number, YTB gets a share of the commission as well.
Yes John I do have my own CLIA and have made bookings to another hosts and have claimed commission 100% on my own.
Lastly, YTB members are not employees of YTB but operating their own travel agencies. Legally YTB members are not bound to book solely to YTB. As for the business license, it was needed because I want to register my company as DBA.
I hope this add a little to your business knowledge.
Checking account and insurances are not mandatory requirements. It all depends of the company.
I dealt with contractors who refused to give their checking account and prefers to receive checks. And honestly, I prefer to receive checks, not due to old style, but to protect my confidential information.
to John,
ReplyDeleteMy posting was not to you, but intended to serve as informational for those that think they know about running a home-based business. I'm sure you know that already.
Not sure where some of these people are located, but in this city it is a requirement to have obtained a business license prior to conducting business: To engage or continue in business the owner must obtain a Business, Occupational and Professional license.
Having a business checking account for a business only makes good business sense. Well, to some of us. When required to show proof of a business checking account for purposes of renewing my TRUE IATA number, I've simply shown a copy of the first page of a monthly statement where the business name is shown along with the bank's name and contact information. I've never been asked for account number information or anything I might consider confidential. When a commission check arrives, it gets deposited into this business checking account. Not old style, just normal style.
Again, why mess with the likes of YTB, WorldVentures or Traverus? Why mess with any company that has state attorney generals suing them and looking to shut them down? Is that the kind of company you really want to be associated with?
If you've got your own CLIA number, TRUE IATA number, or any number that allows you to book directly with suppliers and earn 100% commission, then WHY would you bother using some other companies IATA number and getting less commission?
One last suggestion to anyone involved with YTB, WorldVentures or any other network marketing/MLM travel agency company. When you get yourself one of them Porsches from the company, be sure to keep your day-job. You'll need it to afford the upkeep & maintenance. I used to drive one and though it wasn't mine I know full well about the cost of maintenance, repairs & insurance. There are very few REAL travel consultants that can afford that. Those handsome Texas guys heading WorldVentures can afford to drive anything they want, because they're making plenty off the memberships of all the zombie agents their company recruits. I get my share of handsome guys too, have a way of attracting them...however, it takes more than good looks or money to win me over. Some are more easily bought than others and some are glad to have boots on to step thru all the bull!
Peace to all,
Cookie Lombardo
Cookie said...
ReplyDeleteNot sure where some of these people are located, but in this city it is a requirement to have obtained a business license prior to conducting business: To engage or continue in business the owner must obtain a Business, Occupational and Professional license.
It all depends which state, which city and which profession? Yes you need a professional license but depends which profession. As our topic is about travel agent(s), no professional license required for this occupation. I use the term "occupation" because travel agent is not a profession but a vocation. Mind you professional license are for the doctors, nurses, lawyers, teachers, engineers etc etc.. NOT for travel agents!
Cookie said...
Again, why mess with the likes of YTB, WorldVentures or Traverus? Why mess with any company that has state attorney generals suing them and looking to shut them down? Is that the kind of company you really want to be associated with?
Okay so our company does business with Microsoft, Deloitte, Intel and other multinational companies out there, so are you saying, we should not deal with Microsoft,Deloitte, Intel because it has been sued ? and for your info, just in case you do not read the news, recently Microsoft was penalized in Europe for million euro penalties?
Are you also trying to say that AMWAY and many similar companies or any companies which have/had been sued should be snubbed? AMWAY have almost identical business compensation (the pyramid scheme)- just like YTB. So why AMWAY was not shut down? I've never attended any AMWAY business presentation but it is one of those companies that have "pyramid scheme" but hey it is still there growing bigger and bigger.
I guarantee the moment these companies offer you some business (likely it will not happen), you would be damn tweaking your marketing materials just to get into their doors.
Shall we stop wrangling YTB et al, move on and improve our own business. At the end of the day, YTB is just being sued and so far no court decision is being made. Even if YTB get penalized or shut down (which I doubt it will happen - just look at AMWAY), business moves on and there would be more and more recruits.
Also shall we keep the topic to purely "travel business" rather than "how to get handsome guys". I am sure many car owners know the cost of upkeep and maintenance and I am sure many ladies and women out there have their own way how to get these handsome guys. I do not even know what is your definition of handsome guys, is it neat, clean and tidy and geeky? I am sure your definition is different to mine. To me porsche are not the "IT" car, there are Bentlys, Rolls Royce, etc etc.... - it all depends on the person, some like sport cars, some like SUVs and some like Hybrids (and I am one of them). I dont know how many of you have travelled overseas, but porsches are just one of those equivalent to BMWs. I am sure it is the same case in our mighty USA.
Ive attended presentation which show some fancy cars but I reiterate, it is an "invitation to treat" - it is not the core of the business but merely to capture a viewers/readers attention.
for Ingrid,
ReplyDeleteHmmm, interpersonal ethics must not be something you know much about. Anymore than your knowledge of what a business license is, when or why it's required or what it even looks like. Mine clearly says, in big lettering across the top, "Business, Occupational and Professional License". I used my business checking account to pay the small fee for this business license, so easily obtained. So easy to obtain that I wouldn't even begin to consider conducting business without one, no matter what type of business I chose.
And for you "edumacated" professional IT persons, here's a well-known web-site's definition of "profession":
1. a vocation requiring knowledge of some department of learning or science: the profession of teaching. Compare learned profession. (note "knowledge")
2. any vocation or business.
3. the body of persons engaged in an occupation or calling: to be respected by the medical profession.
(A passion for one's profession is often referred to as a calling.)
4. the act of professing; avowal; a declaration, whether true or false: professions of dedication.
(I like this one. Are you dedicated to your profession as an IT person. Just wondering, since you're dabbling in professions in which you lack true knowledge.)
Just in case you do not read the news:
Deloitte has raised the percentage of trips that comply with preferred airline policies to more than 80 percent. Compliance to preferred booking channels--whether the travel management company, BCD Travel, or online booking tool, from Travelport--is over 90 percent. Preferred hotel compliance is above 80 percent.
source - Dec. 2007 cover story - ProMedia Travel - Procurement.travel - The Source for Managed Travel Insight
Try all of their leading
professional travel publications!
The word compliance means something to Deloitte. Compliance includes being properly licensed, including a business license and/or professional license. Years ago when I worked for Prudential/Pruco Securities, I worked in the Compliance Division.
It's quite easy to verify information in this day and age of Internet Technology. I love using the internet for research. You'd be amazed at how quickly information can be obtained on preferred travel companies & suppliers of major corporations, including those you named.
Do I want one of those major corporations to offer me their business? Sorry, but as a sole proprietor that's not my area of specialty any longer. My preference is for luxury leisure travel. Luxury clients aren't looking for discount travel. Yes, they expect value for their money, but quality & service is something they value far more. Corporate travel arrangements require an incredible amount of work and lots of travel & business knowledge. It's a great advantage to have at least some understanding of your client's business and business travel needs. Some refer to it as personal customer service.
More news: Amway is now Quixtar, has been for a number of years. Again, try the internet for researching them and you'll see a long list of why they've been sued. I only know a small bit about Quixtar and even attended on of their motivational and inspiring seminars. But who needs them? YOU inspire me! I bet John, who started this blog, is getting a kick out of the dueling blogettes!
And for the finale':
If you'd like to see a fine demonstration in the definition of handsome, as well as neat, clean, tidy, & sweet looking men, I'd say hop on the internet and direct yourself to WorldVentures.com and check out the bios of Mr. Nugent and his fellow executive team... BUT,
their website is in the midst of being redesigned and their handsome faces are no longer as easily viewed, among the numerous site modifications. By chance have you jumped ship from YTB and migrated to WorldVentures, as their new IT person??? Both of those companies had the Porsche as a little teaser to their recruits. I've traveled internationally (overseas & across the pond) numerous times. The one thing I agree with is that Porsche is not the "it" car, and is pretty much in the same class as BMW. They're okay but I have my preferences too. As a matter of fact, I'm a little partial to BMW; that's what I was driving when I got t-boned in that auto accident some months back. Though the airbag dang near killed me, it also saved me, from having glass splattered all over the left side of my face. Not to mention that angel that surrounded & protected me and showed itself to me with the flutter of its wings encircling me. Don't try to tell me it was the airbag, cuz airbags do not have wings or go way up 30-40 feet in the air. Though I didn't know it, my ex-husband had put a guardian angel in the front grill of the car. Worked for me!
Did you know that airbags deploy at speeds up to 200mph? I learned that recently doing a little research on the internet.
Bless you Ingrid, for making this blog fun...for me anyhow! Never drive faster than angels can fly and know that they are with us.
(Once again John, sorry for the length. Hope you enjoyed it as much as I did.)
Love, Light & Peace,
Cookie Lombardo
(Now on to more important things...take care!)
YTB.... HMMMM well... I am not a part of YTB but know of some that are. Are they in the wrong, not completely sure ... yet. But I have been in this industry for over 14 years (mlm/network marketing) and I know when you get hit with a compliance issue, it's BAD! That's reality. Now, whether they will be found guilty of such a charge is irrelavent, now trust comes into play and the damage is already done.
ReplyDelete