Wednesday, June 25, 2008

The San Francisco Chronicle Gets It


The San Francisco Chronicle published a column on June 19th regarding of all thing...Card Mills! The article was very well balanced, and did not name any names. It also pinpointed that the line between legitimacy and illegitimacy is very blurred.

Among the comments they made:

Card mills, on the other hand, cross the line into scams. Although a card-mill organization nominally acts exactly like a legitimate agency that uses outside reps, it's totally different. What makes it a card mill is that neither the organizations nor the reps actually expect to sell any appreciable amount of travel (except possibly to themselves). Instead, travelers pay the fees and join solely to get one of those outside agent ID cards, which they supposedly can use to obtain free "fam trip" travel packages and huge "travel agent" discounts on air travel, hotel accommodations, cruises and other services for their personal trips.
Imagine that! No one expects to sell any appreciable amount of travel except to themselves. Paying fees to get a card? They continue:

How do you spot a card mill? Typically, card mills act in two ways that legitimate agencies do not:

-- They promise you can travel like a travel agent in their promotions.

-- They use multilevel marketing, which means they ask reps not just to sell travel but also to sell others on becoming reps. Or, in plain terms, they're pyramid schemes. The more notorious card mills make virtually all their profits through selling memberships rather than travel.

Promise that you can travel like a pro? Come on! Who would do that? They ask reps to recruit as well? Come on this is just ridiculous! A Pyramid scheme? And the "notorious" ones actually make more money selling memberships than travel? Simply unbelievable.

Well, like the LA Times, apparently the San Francisco Chronicle understands that if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

58 comments:

  1. Let's remember that to get a card of any kind you have to have non personal travel sales before even applying. Even if it is a small amount you still have to find a customer of some kind before obtaining a card. And remember, all of you TTAs say without IATA accredation YTB folks wouldn't get anything anyway, so why B&M about it?

    ReplyDelete
  2. John,
    Bad reporting on your part again. Or at least bad headlines. The article you linked to was written by Ed Perkins. Nothing against the guy, but he is an independent writer who has syndicated contracts with dozens of newspapers and websites around the country. Many newspapers and other "news organizations" as you know utilized columnists from all over the world without those comments being the opinion of the paper itself.

    So, instead of posting an article that says "the San Francisco Chronicle gets it" you should have said "A travel writier who lives in the Mountains of Oregon" gets it.

    And as far as the opinion and how I belive he is wrong, see the previous post and to add...he mentions card mills FROM 500 to 5000 in start up fees????
    The reason he doesn't name any names is because NONE of the companies out there fit that description. The only ones are the online franchises like Cruise ONe for example that is 10 grand.

    It is actually illegal to have an MLM with a fee of 500 or higher.
    So, that last statement pretty much debunks his own article. It seems that you and he go to the same school of effective reporting.

    ReplyDelete
  3. Thanks for clearing that up anonymous. The $499 startup fee by YTB is so much lower than $500. That makes them legit? Hardly.

    ReplyDelete
  4. actually its 450...
    But here's something else. Do you even know who Ed Perkins is? He is a big time online travel advocate. He could be the reason that all of you TTAs are up in a wad anyway. Here is an amazon link to his book.
    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0735611106/qid=1111075886/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/103-8082667-1052660?v=glance&s=books&n=507846


    ON that link is the review and here is an important paragraph...

    Book Description
    Where are the best travel deals on line? How can you traverse the fine print of travel industry rules and restrictions to your advantage? Where can you get the most reliable advice? No mere Yellow Pages of travel-related Web sites, ONLINE TRAVEL focuses on helping do-it-yourself travel planners thoroughly understand and exploit their best options on line. Written by syndicated national columnist and travel expert Ed Perkins, ONLINE TRAVEL takes readers inside the travel industry before unloosing them on the Internet. A winner of the Traveler's Advocate Award from the American Society of Travel Agents, Perkins decodes much of the arcana of industry terminology and practices, arming consumers with the whats, whys, and how-to's for getting the best deals-and avoiding mistakes. He guides the online travel buyer through recommended resources-everything from sites for individual airlines and hotels to independent booking services, including Expedia.com-explaining their advantages and limitations, and offering "Inside-the-system" tips for getting the best service and prices. With ONLINE TRAVEL, anyone can plan and book their next excursion like a pro!


    Notice the last sentence.,.....
    Here it is again....

    WITH ONLINE TRAVEL, ANYONE CAN PLAN AND BOOK THEIR NEXT EXCURSION LIKE A PRO!


    Hmmm...ANyone???? Like a Pro????


    Wow....So, can we assume that the San Francisco Chronicle "gets it"?
    That they hire a writer that thinks that anyone can book online and do it like a pro just by buying this guys book?
    Well I guess that is cheaper then 450...

    ReplyDelete
  5. Anyone CAN book online. That doesn't make them a pro.

    I guess since most of my travel is done myself, I'm now a "travel pro" and you know what it doesn't cost me $50 a month plus and a startup fee!

    ReplyDelete
  6. Scam,
    you missed my point. Ed Perkins who wrote the article that join referenced is basically telling people that they have no need for a TA. All they have to do is book online. And you are right booking online doesn't cost you 50 per month and a startup fee, but what if you travelled enough and booked exclusively online for your own travels that the comission exceeded that amount? Wouldn't that then make sense to you?
    You pay 450 and 50 per month totally 1050 for the first year. What if you booked online FOR YOU ONLY FROM YOUR SITE instead of another online site and the money back in your pocket exceeded 1050? Would that make sense to you? Then the next year it only would be 600, so if you did the same then you would NET over 400 bucks for doing what you were doing. Wouldn't that make sense to you, if you fit that description?
    Admittedly, I do work the business from the travel side and the marketing side, but if I didn't work it, I would still benefit from my personal travel alone.
    We take one family cruise a year. 6 of us, usually about6-8 grand for our 2 cabins. Our last one put 774 bucks back in our pocket from that one trip alone. Our next one we are going with another family, they don't travel as much so they are booking through us. We were all going anyway, I will put back in my pocket about 1150 bucks on my next cruise. How does that not make sense to you?

    I will be the first to admit that YTB isn't for everyone and there are likely people in YTB who unfortunatley mislead some prospects. But, for me it works. Period. I know for others in my team it does as well. And that is without the MLM part. That is just icing on the cake if you ask me.

    ReplyDelete
  7. I am sorry but you guys are fools. "Online Travel" is the title of his book. The sentence reads (since comprehension is an issue)--"With MY BOOK, anyone can plan and book their next excursion like a pro." Get it? If you are still having difficulty, ask your kid to explain it to you as soon as he is done watching Sesame Street.

    Ed Perkins is a nationally syndicated columnist and does supply stories to many papers. However, it is the paper that decides what they accept. SO yes, the SF Chronicle most definitely does "get it". And to further your argument, then simply because you are affiliated with YTB, we should not say that you are a YTB Referring Travel Agent; but a Website Rentee Living in A Trailer Park/Condo/Mansion in Younamethattown?

    And I think it is strange that all the YTBers came out of the woodwork immediately to "defend" their "honor" when there was not s single mention of YTB in either the column or my blog post.

    But why not send Ed Perkins an email as well as the Editor of the SF Chronicle and set them straight. I don't know Ed, but i am sure I can get the editor's email if you like.

    ReplyDelete
  8. I sent him an email, thanks for the advice, I will post his reply when I get it. Also, the reason I came out to defend even though you or he didn't mention names, is your antiMLM blog has 99.9% of the time been an anti-YTB blog...just following logic.

    ReplyDelete
  9. John,
    You are so wrong with newspaper columnists. As an example you beloved Chronicle has political columnists from Robert Sheer, a far left wing liberal to Debra Saunders, a conservative columnist. So, by your logic then ANYTHING that both of those columnists say is something that the Chronicle as an entity "gets"?
    Nice try

    ReplyDelete
  10. John Frenaye -

    Still waiting for you to admit your mistake in yesterday's daily Anti-YTB entry:

    "Well, fast forward 3 months 20% of the way through the program and we have our first winner! . . . So it took 3 months to find 1 person that could recruit on pace to make the first level of incentive."

    Big headlines . . . totally untrue.

    Not ONE, but FIVE.

    And the first one was weeks ago.

    And more are in the process of qualifying.

    But it still stays front and center on the John Frenaye Anti-YTB blog.

    Credibility, credibility.

    Interesting how silent the Anti-YTB blogger is in response to his proven inaccuracy.

    Looks like another example of the John Frenaye Anti-YTB doctine:

    If it is negative about YTB, leave it "front and center".

    Even if it is false.

    Leave it up because it fits the Anti-YTB template.

    It should have been taken down yesterday.

    But, again, leave it up and ignor the falsehood.

    People will read the headline and form their opinions based on it.

    Over 24 hours and counting.

    Remember this, new readers to the blog.

    You cannot trust the information from this biased travel journalist.

    It has been proven many times.

    And his silence about this post is . . . priceless.

    YTB and TRAVEL: A Great Mix!

    ReplyDelete
  11. You RTA's are so brain washed and manipulated by Crotch and the gang you don't know what the heck is the truth.

    I am still puzzling over a HUGE company like YTB that can't keep their numbers straight or have any idea what they make. What do all those bean counters and lawyers do in White River? Since they obviously aren't doing their job maybe they need to get rid of them like Teddy.

    As to the SF Chronicle don't you all know John owns it now like he owns TW and the rest of the trades?

    ReplyDelete
  12. Ed Perkins states, "What makes a card mill is that neither the organizations nor the reps actually expect to sell any appreciable amount of travel (except possibly to themselves). Instead, travelers pay the fees and join solely to get one of those outside agent ID cards, which they supposedly can use to obtain free "fam trip" travel packages and huge "travel agent" discounts on air travel, hotel accommodations, cruises and other services for their personal trips."


    I know what the YTB financial reports reveal about the disproportion between travel commissions and online travel agency sales leaves one to believe that YTB is not emphasizing travel sales. However, a company having two cruise sailathons in one year is definitely emphasizing the importance of selling travel to its agents.

    YTB/CCL Sailathon 2 --

    Get ready because on
    Thursday, June 26 YTB cruise night will kick off! YTB will go live on the internet and phone for an action packed night!
    INVITE EVERYONE JUNE 26th FOR A LIVE CRUISE NIGHT!
    Kim has challenged every RTA to invite 3 or 4 people over on June 26th to be a part of history with YTB and make cruise night a huge triumph!

    Kim Sorenson and Ann Sedgwick, Carnival Business Development Manager for YTB, created a DVD presentation for Download to show to your clients. We promise - you and your clients don't want to miss a second of cruise night!

    If this exciting night wasn't enough to get you pumped, take a look at this:

    J. Kim Sorensen also announced a special booking contest with Carnival Cruise Lines.
    Book 2 or more passengers: Receive a Carnival/YTB shirt
    Book a category 8A Cabin or above: Receive a roller backpack valued at $200.00

    *Applies to online, individual bookings only (Groups don't apply to contest). Must be booked from YTB booking engine.*

    The RTA with the most cabins booked will win a 12-day Mediterranean Cruise with airfare included!

    1st Place
    12 Day Mediterranean Cruise with Airfare
    2nd Place - 5th Place
    Cruise Giveaways with an Airfare Allowance

    ReplyDelete
  13. "a company having two cruise sailathons in one year is definitely emphasizing the importance of selling travel to its agents."

    Very funny Rod.

    1 promotion per year to encourage your agents to sell travel? Laughable.

    Any REAL travel agency would be having quarterly, if not monthly, incentives to encourage their agents to sell/book travel.

    And this? "Must be booked from YTB booking engine." Again, LOL! This isn't a travel sales contest, this is a [b]website referral contest[/b]! Throw as many people at your website and see how many book.

    No groups??

    What a joke.

    ReplyDelete
  14. Why do you have to have a contest to get your employees to actually book travel? I don't understand this concept. In my office if you don't produce, your out on your ass. Plain and simple. But YTB can't do that because then coach wouldn't get the fees and he would be able to afford his cars, mansion, or jet. Right? The agents should be producing on a regular basis, not because they are going to get a free crappy t-shirt or roll-away-bag for free.

    ReplyDelete
  15. "The San Francisco Chronicle Gets It"

    Maybe they didn't get this...

    "YTB as #26 on TW's Power List."

    This one sentence alone knocks the wind out of the sails of today's topic IMHO.

    ReplyDelete
  16. TravelLisa said...
    Why do you have to have a contest to get your employees to actually book travel? I don't understand this concept.

    Where have you been? If you don't understand the concept, then I suggest you read this.
    Contests can rev up employees: additional incentives for salespeople and other workers can generate excitement and boost profits.

    Olescorekeeper

    ReplyDelete
  17. Joe said...
    "Very funny Rod...
    a company having two cruise sailathons in one year is definitely emphasizing the importance of selling travel to its agents."

    Hey Joe,
    I remember more than a couple of YTB travel booking contests. I actually remember several. Here are a couple of more that are ongoing today:


    BOOK TO WIN!
    CCRAtravel.com
    Hotel Booking Contest
    1st Prize: $1,000 American Express Gift Card
    5 Runner Up Prizes for $100 each

    GET STARTED Booking Hotels Today…
    All current YTB RTA members can enter and BOOK TO WIN!

    􀂃Simply book rooms through CCRA (located in your travel portal)

    􀂃You can access the best rates at over 70,000 hotels worldwide!

    􀂃Any questions, please contact liz.badras@ccrainternational.com

    BOOK TO WIN!
    You will automatically earn points for each booking from now through Sep. 1st

    􀂃1 point for each GDS rate booking (“P” or “C” rates)

    􀂃2 points for each Internet Discount booking (“I” rates)

    􀂃5 points for each Net Rate booking (“N” rates)

    Winners will be announced
    at Funshine East in Orlando in September

    Contest Rules

    􀂃Points are awarded for all hotel bookings made beginning Monday, April 21, 2008 through Monday, September 1, 2008, for travel anytime.

    􀂃Hotel bookings must be completed (cancellations will not count).

    􀂃In the event of a tie, where more than one RTA achieves the same total points by September 1, 2008 – a drawing will determine the winner.

    􀂃Winners will be notified within the first week of September, and will be announced at Funshine East in Orlando. Winners need not be present.

    YTB Book to Win Contest




    Shanghai Spring Tours is promoting a Super Sales Contest through the month of June 2008 for all Travel Agents who sell Spring Tour’s Beijing Summer Game packages!

    There are several ways to win and the best part is, the more you sell the more you win! Everybody who sells at least two packages is a winner!

    So get ready and start sending your favorite clients to one of the most spectacular events of the year which will truly be a vacation to remember!

    • For every two (2) 2008 Beijing Summer Games packages sold, the travel agent will receive one (1) BT9 China 9 day tour.

    o Air from Los Angeles is included. Maximum two (2) BT9 packages per travel agent. Voucher is transferable. Travel must be from 11/1/08 -11/30/08.

    • For every ten (10) 2008 Beijing Summer Games packages sold, the travel agent will receive two (2) Free Hawaii 4 day tour packages.

    o Air from Los Angeles or San Francisco is included. Voucher is transferable. Offer is good through 12/20/08.

    • For every twenty (20) 2008 Beijing Summer Games packages sold, the travel agent will receive an additional one (1) free tour of the nine (9) tour packages offered by Shanghai Spring Tours of your choice to the 2008 Beijing Summer Games in China this August.

    To book, simply visit the Vacations tab on your website and click on the Spring Tour International link. If you want to make some serious money in June and enjoy some fabulous tours for 2008 absolutely FREE, then get to work today!

    Rules: Contest begins 6-1-08 and ends 6-30-08. All qualifiers will be contacted by Shanghai Spring Tours after the contest is over

    ReplyDelete
  18. Let's remember that to get a card of any kind you have to have non personal travel sales before even applying. Even if it is a small amount you still have to find a customer of some kind before obtaining a card.

    In the above you stated that non-personal travel sales are required. But we've had YTB RTA's come on this blog and state that they:
    1. Arranged with other RTA's to book on eachother's site so each go the minimun non-personal sales
    2. Booked the travel for the family in the spouses name (who was not signed up as an RTA) so it was a non-personal sale.

    That above is not "finding a customer" in my eyes.

    ReplyDelete
  19. Ole

    I know about incentives. I worked in an incentive/group company where big corporations sent thousands of employess on trips for "outstanding service".
    The difference being their employees actually had to sell a "decent quota" to achieve it. 2 cabins is not a decent quota. Its bubkiss. And if you are truly pushing the incentive, why are groups not allowed, thats a big chunk of business. Why only web bookings. Is it a website quota for Carnival showing that the websites actually generate money?

    My meaning was that incentives shouldn't be the only means pushing the employees to sell travel. Since they all wanted to be agents, they should be doing that anyway, and I don't mean booking your own vacation.

    ReplyDelete
  20. Anonymous said...
    Scam,
    you missed my point. Ed Perkins who wrote the article that join referenced is basically telling people that they have no need for a TA. All they have to do is book online. And you are right booking online doesn't cost you 50 per month and a startup fee, but what if you travelled enough and booked exclusively online for your own travels that the comission exceeded that amount? Wouldn't that then make sense to you?
    You pay 450 and 50 per month totally 1050 for the first year. What if you booked online FOR YOU ONLY FROM YOUR SITE instead of another online site and the money back in your pocket exceeded 1050? Would that make sense to you? Then the next year it only would be 600, so if you did the same then you would NET over 400 bucks for doing what you were doing. Wouldn't that make sense to you, if you fit that description?
    Admittedly, I do work the business from the travel side and the marketing side, but if I didn't work it, I would still benefit from my personal travel alone.
    We take one family cruise a year. 6 of us, usually about6-8 grand for our 2 cabins. Our last one put 774 bucks back in our pocket from that one trip alone. Our next one we are going with another family, they don't travel as much so they are booking through us. We were all going anyway, I will put back in my pocket about 1150 bucks on my next cruise. How does that not make sense to you?

    I believe this is called REBATING and as far as I know, the cruise lines and most other suppliers frown on this practice??!!??!!??

    ReplyDelete
  21. Here's my question. What's wrong with rebating when you have a personal retail travel website?

    Also, when you take vacations as a RTA, Tell me what's wrong with writing off the expense of the cruise, resort property, etc. as a business deduction? Of course, this would mean the vacation is going take some of your time for inspecting the property for business 50% of the 8 hour day.

    What's wrong with the following "hook" for recruiting RTAs into YTB? Again, as long as the vacations are understood to be for conducting business 50% of the 8 hour day:

    Hey let me ask you a question.

    In the next 12 months, will you and your family take a vacation? Flying, driving or cruising…

    Wait for an answer.

    Normally, they will say, yeah or what ever, would like to....

    Let me ask you this, When you travel, do you ever book your travel online?
    Like with Expedia, Travelocity or Orbitz? Wait for an answer...

    Listen to what they say.

    When you book it online and pay for it, do you get 60% of the commission that that transaction has generated rebated back to you?

    Wait for an answer or you see that stupid look on their face!

    Oh by the way, that's a personal vacation, right? Not a not a business one?

    So you're not able to write that off your income tax, right?

    Tagline: If I could show you where you could take the same trip, the same time, to the same place online at a comparable price, when you pay for it you earn 60% of the commission generated on the trip rebated back to you and write it off on your income tax, what would your interest level be?

    ReplyDelete
  22. Guess that didn't work too well for you did it Rod?

    So you are saying everyone deserves a discount because they buy travel? That's one reason YTB lost IATA and will likely never get it back. Might as well sign up again and really earn the disrespect this industry has for you and YTB.

    ReplyDelete
  23. "When you book it online and pay for it, do you get 60% of the commission that that transaction has generated rebated back to you?"

    Actually, I book online thru my travel suppliers web sites and I get 100% commission sent to me, as I own my own agency.

    Agents working for me get between 75% and sometimes higher.

    60% is a joke for someone seriously interested in selling travel.

    ReplyDelete
  24. Karla, that didn't answer my questions.

    If people turned their vacations into business trips by actually doing the required minimum 50% of the 8 hour business day doing property inspections what's wrong with that?

    Also, what's wrong with booking your own travel from yourself and getting 60% of the travel commissions rebated back to you?

    You implied that's the reason IATA terminated YTB. Really now?

    ReplyDelete
  25. Whats wrong is you are a consumer, not an agent. All you expect from a supplier is a discount, not a business relationship. YTB plastered its IATA number all over the ID cards issued by YTB so that YTB members could use it for discounts that they have not earned and do not deserve. YTB is using travel as a 'hook', not to sell it, but to sign up RTAs who will pay YTB more in fees than they will ever get in return. YTB knows that 80%, like yourself, will fail, but as long as they send in the fees YTB DOES NOT CARE.

    Get it?

    ReplyDelete
  26. Thanks for answering my questions. I agree with you consumers are not agents. I agree with you that taking a card and using it for discounts is wrong also. I see where you are coming from. However, if I emphasized what you pointed out to prospective recruits, and it's understood to be a business deduction earned by conducting business, not a vacation, then I see no harm no foul to the suppliers nor the IRS.

    Am I wrong?

    ReplyDelete
  27. "However, if I emphasized what you pointed out to prospective recruits, and it's understood to be a business deduction earned by conducting business, not a vacation, then I see no harm no foul to the suppliers nor the IRS."

    Well, then you shouldn't call yourself a travel agency but an MLM which you are.

    ReplyDelete
  28. You would only be able to write your own "portion" of the vacation off to the IRS if you were onsite doing inspections. Not your entire family's. And telling little Joey to check out the swingset is not a site inspection. Giving someone a business card on vacation is not working, checking out your own room or the resort is not working. A proper site-inspection of the resort by the resort would constitute work for yourself..not your whole family. Thats between you and the IRS.

    As for rebating, as a CONSUMER the suppliers frown upon this, and some pull accounts because of it. If you are not an agent, and not actively selling their product (and not to just yourself), you are not entitled to anything. If you want discounts, join a travel club. Do not pretend to be a TA simply because you want the discounts, want the tax writeoffs and rebates. Thats un-ethical and the reason the real TA's are p'oed.

    ReplyDelete
  29. No you are not wrong if they are conducting business, which I doubt most are doing. But just who are you suggesting is 'doing' the business? Little 7 year old Jimmy on a Disney cruise? Doug deducted his kids travel I believe as he signed them up as RTAs in his 'biz'. Or Joes hotel room at grannys funeral? You are asking people who believe they deserve a tax break because they are on a trip! They DO NOT conduct business and you know it, but you will encourage this behavior because it will get someone to sign up under you and that is to YOUR financial benefit. You go read the tax laws for a homebased business and see how much someone who books one trip a year, for themselves, deserves in write offs. I'm finished with you on this subject Rod. Join Joystar, they are an mlm now so you should feel right at home.

    ReplyDelete
  30. TravelLisa said...
    You would only be able to write your own "portion" of the vacation off to the IRS if you were onsite doing inspections.

    TL, if you are doing a site inspection of the Disney Property, I need Little Joey to verify the part of the property I need to see if it is a good vacation for families. So, the way I understand IRS policies, if Little Joey is part of the site inspection, he is a write off as well.

    ReplyDelete
  31. karla said...
    No you are not wrong if they are conducting business.

    That's what I thought. Thank you very much. I would never do anything illegal, unethical, or deceptive.

    Consumer rebates are a no-no. Business rebates to working agents are acceptable.

    ReplyDelete
  32. Anonymous YTB and TRAVEL: said...
    John Frenaye -
    Still waiting for you to admit your mistake in yesterday's daily Anti-YTB entry...

    And YTB and TRAVEL, I'm still waiting for you to identify yourself after about 300 requests now. I'm also asking you to answer or at least address any of the questions I've asked. But no, you're a coward. BTW, you've now outposted me a lot, so don't pretend that you're also not writing other posts and failing to put your signature line on it.

    YTB and TRAVEL: Supporting trailer parks nationwide!

    ReplyDelete
  33. "Business rebates to working agents are acceptable."

    This is the other extremely grey area, and the one that annoys TTA's most of all.

    To most RTA's, selling to yourself and family and friends and "making a few dollars on the side" via a website makes you a working agent. Most TTA's would disagree greatly with that definition.

    ReplyDelete
  34. If you are a working agent you DO NOT NEED little Joey to do your work for you. Consider observing other families as a means to check a child friendly aspect. You are definitely trolling Rod. Say I'm a plumber - I guess I need to take Jr with me to repair toilets - just to make sure the smallest members of the household can work the head themselves. Cool - I can deduct Jr as a business expense! Or say I want to start a resaurant...even better a school! Pathetic. Do you deduct your Mothers trips to the Doctor because you dropped a business card on the floor? Please join something and get a life. Per Karla - READ the IRS guidelines or consult a tax professional. Be sure to take joey with you.

    ReplyDelete
  35. Hey Boss,

    It is within IRS guidelines for little Joey to assist with site inspections of the Disney property.

    Your other examples can be flushed down the toilet as that's what I do with rubbish.

    ReplyDelete
  36. Exactly, when your on a fam trip to a family friendly destination you are NOT TAKING YOUR FAMILY, its a working trip. That's a write off. Not a family vacation. Now, I'm escorting an NCL cruise with 40 people, that I booked, but taking family as well, now I've never been on the ship, so I'll be checking it out, but in no way am I writing that off as a business expense simply because "little joey" got to visit kids krew and said its awesome. Come on, thats reaching at its best. Its a vacation, so now you want the discount on it, commission on it, and the tax write off too.

    ReplyDelete
  37. According to my CPA, IF the expense is necessary for your business enhancement then it is a valid deduction. The flaw is with the IRS itself. Little Joey's experience at a kids camp on a cruise is a valid expense and would enhance a TA's business over one who has no first hand knowledge of the kids programs. I wouldn't rely solely on a TA telling me that a representative from the cruise line told me stuff about the camp, I would want to know that he/she was there with his kids.

    ReplyDelete
  38. It is not a necessary business write off. You can go into the Kids Krew ON YOUR OWN and see what its like. You do not need to pimp out your child simply because you want an additional write off. Really the write offs you people preach about are far fetching, just for a few extra bucks. From the CPA's you all employ, I can deduct pretty much everything..do you deduct your bathing suits, suntan lotion, flip flops simply because your going to wear them on your business trip. Jeez.! Honestly if your scrimping for that little bit, a better job may be in your near future.

    ReplyDelete
  39. FYI--no retraction or apology forthcoming. I think I even posted in a comment that you had 5 people make it. It is still a drop in the REP bucket.

    Most are failing!

    ReplyDelete
  40. martha said...

    "YTB and TRAVEL: Supporting trailer parks nationwide!"

    Martha says she "vomits" on her monitor when she reads Dougs blog. YTBSCAM said he "pukes" when he reads Dougs blog.

    PUKE & VOMIT: A Great Mix

    ReplyDelete
  41. "Little Joey's experience at a kids camp on a cruise is a valid expense and would enhance a TA's business over one who has no first hand knowledge of the kids programs."

    That is absurd. What the heck does a kid know? Give them a Game Boy, pizza and they would rate anything great. Look at Chuck E Cheese. Awful. Yet kids love it. I suppose next you are going to tell us you can write that off.

    Me thinks the IRS needs to be notified of all of this. And you are all in for an audit.

    ReplyDelete
  42. I guess you do need Joey, Rod, as you obviously cannot do a site inspection on your own and come to any credible opinion to pass on to a customer. The IRS will certainly make an exception in your case because of the special needs involved.

    Tell me, why do you actually want to sell travel anyway? Or is it the recruiting you find so attractive? Maybe with Joey by your side, leveraging or whatever kids do, you will not fail like the other 80%.

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  43. God help us if little Joey hates the kids program,decides to play with matches and sets little Annie on fire. I'm sure the ship and passengers will understand that a tax write off is not responsible for his actions.

    You could then say...Because little Joey hated the kids program, this is not a good cruise for you and your 10 kids Mrs Smith.
    Not to mention the extensive repairs they've had to complete because of an accidental fire...

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  44. I think Dougie and the rest of you boobs need to be turned into the IRS.

    http://www.irs.gov/individuals/article/0,,id=106778,00.html



    How Do You Report Suspected Tax Fraud Activity?


    If you suspect or know of an individual or company that is not complying with the tax laws, you may report this activity by completing Form 3949-A. You may fill out Form 3949-A online, print it and mail it to:

    Internal Revenue Service
    Fresno, CA 93888

    If you do not wish to use Form 3949-A, you may send a letter to the address above. Please include the following information, if available:

    *
    Name and address of the person you are reporting
    *
    The taxpayer identification number (social security number for an individual or employer identification number for a business)
    *
    A brief description of the alleged violation, including how you became aware of or obtained the information
    *
    The years involved
    *
    The estimated dollar amount of any unreported income
    *
    Your name, address and daytime telephone number

    Although you are not required to identify yourself, it is helpful to do so. Your identity can be kept confidential.

    Frequently Asked Questions - 1.13 IRS Procedures: Reporting Fraud

    How to Report Abusive Tax Promotions and/or Promoters:
    Complete the referral form which documents the information necessary to report an abusive tax avoidance scheme. The form can be mailed or faxed to the IRS address and fax number on the form.

    How to Report Abusive CPAs, Attorneys or Enrolled Agents:
    Report suspicious actions by tax professionals to the email address of the IRS Office of Professional Responsibility.

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  45. YTB and TRAVEL said....martha said...

    "YTB and TRAVEL: Supporting trailer parks nationwide!"

    Martha says she "vomits" on her monitor when she reads Dougs blog. YTBSCAM said he "pukes" when he reads Dougs blog.

    PUKE & VOMIT: A Great Mix

    Once again you've proven my point. Thank you. You really are an idiot and not a witty one. It takes a few brain cells to have some common sense and you need to come out of the YTB closet.

    YTB and TRAVEL: Cowards United!

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  46. Boss, I want to sell travel as a profession. I want to recruit people who also want to sell travel as a profession. I actually don't have a little Joey myself, as my two are in their 20's and on their own. There are aggressive tax professionals who when you ask a good question which has only one of two answers (yes or no), “Can I deduct _________(fill in the blank), they ask you a great question, "how can we turn that into a tax deduction” (Now we have lots more options now), and then there are those who are very conservative who say to you, “Oh we can't take that tax deduction because the IRS won’t like it.” Yeah. OK. Guess what? So what? Do we care? Is the IRS your dependant? Well partially because you are paying taxes. It’s all interpretation. It all depends on your comfort level and how you are willing to take the deductions. Every year money magazine does a little project and they send people out with the same information to a number of different tax preparers. And they get them back together and see how many have the same answer. Guess what? None or few have the same answer. Why is that? Interpretation, comfort level with the IRS, and knowledge of the tax law. An aggressive tax professional uses the F word for filing taxes. F for fun. If it's fun it must be a game. What do we do in games? We have fun and we play to win. That's an aggressive tax professional's philosophy.

    Tax laws are written in words. Words can be interpreted or misinterpreted as the case may be. Not everybody interprets the tax laws the same way. Some interpret them aggressively and ask, “how can we turn that into a tax deduction?”


    The acid test to determine how can I make this a tax deduction is: Is it a business use asset? You can deduct the business percentage of anything you spend with a few exceptions. How is this helping my business? How is this putting money in my pocket? How is this bringing people to my door?

    What can I write off? Internal Revenue Code Section 162 is where the big print giveth and the small print taketh away. Section 162 basically says there shall be allowed as a deduction all the ordinary and necessary expenses payed or incurred during the tax year in carrying on your business. So it says there shall be allowed all the ordinary and necessary expenses. The IRS may not necessarily agree. What is ordinary and necessary in your business? Who determines that when you file your tax return? You do and your tax professional gives you some guidance. You can take anything you can show is ordinary and necessary. Keep in mind it could be ordinary and necessary, but it may not be reasonable.

    Internal Revenue Code Section 183 addresses activities engaged in not for a profit. So the IRS may look at this and say, “Is this a business or is this a hobby?” If it’s a hobby you may only deduct the amount of expenses equal to the amount of income you earn. If it’s a business and you run it like a business then you get to take all the deductions that you can justify as being ordinary and necessary expenses.

    Risk Management. Anytime you’re aggressive on your tax return there is some risk involved. The risk is that the IRS is going to audit you and they could take away the deductions. So you as a business person have to do a risk evaluation. If you can make the justification that yes this really is good for the business, it’s ordinary and necessary, why not take the deduction?

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  47. Rod--

    All I can say is that it is a good thing that you have made so much money with YTB and banked or invested it to have the funds to defend yourself against the IRS and to ultimately pay any back taxes and penalties owed.

    Gosh, three years can add a lot of interest and penalties. But you are ok because Coach told you so--and you know Coach--if it ain't true don't say it!

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  48. Insider --

    If I do get the letter from the IRS, I will refer them to my tax professional who will represent me.

    If it's a risk I don't take the deduction. But if I do take the deduction and the tax return goes to the service center and the service center puts down the tax return into the computer and the computer scores it. If it's too high a score the computer kicks it out. When the computer kicks it out somebody looks at it and says I wonder what the computer saw. If they see what the computer saw, then they refer it to an audit group. The audit group manager says oh look at all this. Let's look at the return and all the other returns that I have in my inventory. If this is one of the best returns that I have in my inventory I'm going to refer it to an auditor. The auditor or agent looks at it and says is this one of the best returns I have in my inventory. If it is they call you. You get an IRS letter that says greetings. Now I call my tax professional and they handle the audit for me. However, once they look at it then they have to find it, then they have to find they disagree with my tax professional, once they disagree with my tax professional, my tax professional has to find if it's not worth the cost to fight it and agrees with the tax then we pay the tax and a little interest. We don't pay penalty because when we took it over here we had a reasonable expectation that this was used in the business. It's not going to be something like I bought a 5 carat diamond ring because I want to look successful in the business. What's the difference? Our risk management. We can pay the taxes for sure or over hear we maybe we can pay tax plus a little interest. There's a small difference there, just the interest. What else do you pay interest on? Loans. If your banker came to you and said I've got a loan for you let me tell you the terms. I'm going to give you $3,000 dollars today and with that $3,000 I may ask for it back and if I do it’ll be in the next 3 years. I may ask for all $3,000 back or I may ask for only $1200 or $1300 of it. I’m going to give you the opportunity to talk me out of this money, but if you can’t talk me out of it, I’m going to make you pay it back to me, the $1200 or $1300 or the full $3,000 with interest from today. Now at the same time there’s better than a 98% chance that I’ll never ask for this money back. Would you like this loan with those kind of terms? Yes. You’ve got to understand that you’ve got to have the reasonable basis from the beginning to take the deduction and not to have the penalties because penalties are a waste of time.

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  49. But bringing your child and using him as a deduction is not REASONABLE. You do not need a child to tell you if a resort is nice or not. Or even if Joey is going to like kids krew or whatever. It just seems slimey and unethical to me. But I guess thats my opinion and something I simply will never do to save a few bucks.

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  50. Wow--seems you have a good handle on it Rod.

    Although I am more in line with AIWK

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  51. To Anonymous,

    As a TTA, I am confident that I can beat the cruise pricing on YTBs website 50-99% of the time. With a group of 6 people, savings could easily exceed the $774 commission Mr YTB got back for selling it on his own website. I am confident, most TTAs could beat YTB cruise and package prices the majority of the time. We should have a little contest.

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  52. Rod, do you know what paragraph's are for?

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  53. "I believe this is called REBATING and as far as I know, the cruise lines and most other suppliers frown on this practice??!!??!!??"

    Unfortunately, while they may frown at it, very few have actually done anything about it. If they had, things like cruisecompete.com wouldn't exist anymore.

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  54. Uh Steve, haven't we been through this before.

    Cruise lines frown on consumer rebating.

    Travel Consultants are not consumers.

    Wow. Four sentences and four paragraphs.

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  55. Rod.

    They still frown upon it if TRAVEL AGENTS rebate the comm back to the client to get the sale. Thats what Steve is referring to. Again, basic travel knowledge.

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  56. I thought Steve was referring to YTB RTAs since he didn't have a lead-in to his statement.

    YTB RTAs do not rebate the commission back to the client.

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  57. "YTB RTAs do not rebate the commission back to the client."

    Rod,

    I know at least 2 that do rebate back to clients, just to get their business.

    If I know 2, then how many of the remaining thousands of RTA's might be doing it too? What's your guess??

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  58. I was referring to agents rebating commissions to consumers. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

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