Tuesday, April 29, 2008

Is A Travel MLM Really Such A Bad Idea?


Traditional TA’s have taken a lot of heat for our anti-mlm stand. But it appears that there are several other well educated, intelligent people outside the travel industry who agree that travel and mlms are a bad mix as well. In fact, Robert Fitzgerald has dedicated the majority of his career investigating the mlm model, and the horrible impact it has had on our society.

In his book “False Profits” FitzPatrick examines the persuasion techniques of these mlm recruiters, and devastating effects of mlm addiction. We caught up with Mr. FitzPatrick to get his take on the travel mlm model, and the effects that mlms have had on other industries. We are also trying to understand why so many YTBers are so defensive of YTB, despite the fact that over 80% receive zero income. Here is what Mr. Fitzgerald had to say. I wonder if Dr Seligman would like to respond…

“ My book, False Profits, is all about the power of these schemes to lure, seduce and persuade. I boil it down to their ability to manipulate beliefs and values that we treasure. Financial independence, freedom, individuality, a higher purpose for work, a destiny of better times, is part of a supportive community of "winners." In American we tend to equate wealth with goodness. So, when a scheme promises wealth it is like promising salvation, a validation for living. Many of us harbor deep seated longings for wealth and independence and are also deeply frustrated and disappointed that we have not achieved it. MLM unleashes these desperate hopes, frustrations and longings. As you see, it is a shameless manipulation. MLM goes after your very soul. It does indeed have the power of a cult. It uses many techniques -- repetition of aphorisms, strong hierarchical leadership, bombardment with recognition, a phony "community" and a promise of financial salvation, and most of all strict control over thinking and behavior -- that are classic brain washing and cult tactics.But it all starts with our own longings, hopes and beliefs. MLM is an American invention. It taps into special America values and beliefs. As these values and beliefs are spread worldwide in a global market economy, MLM is right there along with them to do its work of exploiting and manipulation. It is like our dark shadow.As you see, it took me a whole book to fully address this "mystery." It is indeed mysterious. But once you examine the claims, promises and techniques used by MLM and understand the beliefs, feelings, hopes and values that are so common among us, the reactions of people are more understandable.What we are speaking about, then, is a terrible kind of fraud. This fraud, like all frauds, steals money. It does so by deception, like all frauds do. But, more importantly, it also grossly manipulates people's hopes and dreams. It steals time and energy and its exploits a person's closest relationships, family, friends, and neighbors. So, it can not only steal money but literally destroy lives.This is, therefore, no ordinary scam. It is a virus that can negatively affect entire industries and communities and have very long term negative effects on people's lives and financial conditions. We talk with victims frequently who attribute their divorces, bankruptcies, family strife and loss of friends to MLM. I have been in two court cases where people committed suicide after being ruined not just financially and but socially by their MLM involvement.”

It's not just that travel & mlms are a bad mix, mlms and anything can be a bad mix when the people who get involved don't understand that they may not be the one driving the cocaine white bently.

49 comments:

  1. John,
    You could have never made this blog post, never made any post and simply put this statement up that you had at the end....

    It's not just that travel & mlms are a bad mix, mlms and anything can be a bad mix when the people who get involved don't understand that they may not be the one driving the cocaine white bently.



    The most important part of that sentence was that MLM and anything CAN be a bad mix WHEN the people don't understand....

    So, it really isn't MLM that is the problem, it is some people who are in MLM who prey on others and it isn't unique to MLM.....

    I am an RTA with YTB and very happy to be. I have supplemented my household income with about 1500 per month on top of my fine salary within my career.
    I wasn't duped....I don't dupe anyone....

    With respect to the specific post, we can go find hundreds of publications about how MLM is the way to do business.
    There simply is a fundamental difference in opinion.

    ReplyDelete
  2. Maybe I am a bad investigator, but I did a search on amazon for robert fitzgerald (who is a poet of some kind) and false profits ( there is no reference to a book of that title by that author. Did you spell the name wrong in your post? I am curious to read some reviews on his work. Would you please elaborate on where I could find his work.

    ReplyDelete
  3. Never mind John,
    I found it myself It is Fitzpatrick not Fitzgerald, so in the spirit of your post from the other day, does that make you a LIAR?

    Probably not, but this might, I just did a search on some of Fitzpatricks comments, AND on his own site pyramidscheme alert.org there is a link to an audio when he talks about his book false profits and the audio starts with the "VERBTIM" intro you just had....up until the connection to YTB which he did not addess..you just lumped it in.

    This was the intro frfom the radio interview....
    In his book “False Profits” Fitzgerald examines the persuasion techniques of these mlm recruiters, and devastating effects of mlm addiction. We caught up with Mr. Fitzgerald to get his take on the travel mlm model, and the effects that mlms have had on other industries.

    That iks what you had....
    Then this his audio from the interview was your quote in the post.

    You didn't interview him, you lifted a 3 year old radio intervieww from the internet. Nice one!

    ReplyDelete
  4. "We caught up with Mr. Fitzgerald to get his take on the travel mlm model"

    So if you interviewed Mr. FitzPatrick, why didn't he say anything about travel MLM's or YTB specifically? Did you show him a YTB presentation, or the comp plan, or send him to an online presentation? The word 'travel' is nowhere in the quote you provided.

    A visit to Mr. FitzPatrick's website http://www.pyramidschemealert.org/psamain/home.html similarly fails to reveal the word 'travel'. Many MLM's are reported there, but not Mary Kay, Avon, Maleleuca, or YTB.

    Oh, I know! You're just making this up!!

    ReplyDelete
  5. Here is a good one to right from pyramidschemealert.org
    .....
    Donate to Pyramid Scheme Alert
    Pyramid Scheme Alert is a not-for-profit, volunteer organization. Despite the many hundreds of donated hours, there are still some expenses. Please support PSA if you have ever

    been fleeced in an MLM and then been categorized as a 'loser'
    discovered your upline's income really came from selling you tapes, seminars and false hopes
    seen a family member, friend, or co-worker taken over by MLM dreams
    been concerned at what this US 'export' does in third world countries.
    Your contributions will help us to maintain this website, and continue our research, our lobbying efforts, and our programs to educate consumers and regulators about pyramid scheme fraud.

    Donate using PayPal.



    OK, so it's not for profit and they have some expenses....I am OK with that. But, John's whole post was about emotions and playing into peoples problems, blah blah blah....well they are asking for donations from the poor people who have been taken advantage of and labeled a "loser"
    Nice.

    And to agree with the previous poster, john conveniently made his OWN connection to travel from an ANTI-MLM guy and John's anti_YTB turning it into an unproven, undocumented, intentional inference about this Fitzpatrick guy's oppostition to YTB.

    Seems that JOHN is the biggest Liar around. Well, I am honest no not a liar, but a deceiver.

    ReplyDelete
  6. "But it appears that there are several other well educated, intelligent people outside the travel industry who agree that travel and mlms are a bad mix as well."

    But Robert FitzPatrick isn't one of them. He's a self-proclaimed "expert" with a bachelors degree in sociology from a seminary (1968). http://www.falseprofits.com/FitzPatrickCV07.doc.pdf

    And the book "False Profits" was published in 1997. How about something newer, please?

    Has Mr. FitzPatrick ever been actively involved in a MLM, or is just an outsider looking in?

    ReplyDelete
  7. plagarism + fabrication + (desperation + frustration) = John Frenaye

    ReplyDelete
  8. Isn't it funny how John, in the past when he THOUGHT he might be right chimes in instantly to make a comment, today-NADA, but we know he is here as he just posted 10 minutes ago on YESTERDAY'S post.

    You know, it is possible that the ANTI travel MLM crowd could have some arguments but JOHN as the spokesman doesn't work as he is often found out to be full of it.

    ReplyDelete
  9. Here's a more recent pro-MLM publication http://marketwaveinc.com/articles/zealots01.asp from a guy whose cv is on par with Mr. FitzPatrick's, but who unlike Fitz, has actually worked in MLM - not just an outsider looking in. He's not just a theorist.

    ReplyDelete
  10. Actually, John asked me to be a guest poster, and I accidentally spelled the author's name wrong. This is what happens when I start writing before I have had enough coffee. So, it was a simple typo, not a lie.
    The reason that you don't see travel in there anywhere is because I wanted to NOT just pick on YTB for a change, but rather show that the MLM model has the same negative effects on the people involved, no matter what the product is.
    Whether you agree with him or not, he is very passionate about his beliefs, and has done a lot to help people who's lives have been negatively impacted by mlms of all kinds.
    And no, this isn't a joke. This really is my name....
    Kate Holmes (not Mrs Cruise)

    ReplyDelete
  11. Kate,
    Ok so it wasn't a lie, that was a play on john accusing regina of being a Liar when she may have made a mistake. that is number one.

    Number 2 and most importantly with your post here in comments....you say you didn't want to pick on YTB for a change....but all MLM, well here is your intro to the quote by Fitzpatrick...

    In his book “False Profits” FitzPatrick examines the persuasion techniques of these mlm recruiters, and devastating effects of mlm addiction. We caught up with Mr. FitzPatrick to get his take on the travel mlm model, and the effects that mlms have had on other industries. We are also trying to understand why so many YTBers are so defensive of YTB, despite the fact that over 80% receive zero income. Here is what Mr. Fitzgerald had to say. I wonder if Dr Seligman would like to respond…


    Seems you are focusing on YTB and TRAVEL. SO, why doesn't fitzpatrick not mention travel???
    That's right because he was never asked about it.

    Nice to see Mrs tom cruise is brainwashed into bad reporting by JF

    ReplyDelete
  12. Jeremiah Wright is passionate and has helped the black community but because of that should we take his opinion as truth about 9/11 and white people in America? I don't.

    Guess what Kate, leave John's side as you are now a victim to the bad argument.

    ReplyDelete
  13. Once again, I was trying to show the negative impact that the MLM model can have, regardless of what product or service the MLM model is. Be it travel or dog food, the mlm model can have the same devastating effects.
    And for the record, I have spoken with Mr FitzPatrick on more than one occasion. This was not second hand info from John. I was the one that introduced John to him, not the other way around.
    I could give you countless examples of people who have a cause or something they care deeply about, even though they may not have any direct experience with it.
    I think what is most interesting, is that your hyper-defensive post proves exactly what Mr.FitzPatrick is saying.

    ReplyDelete
  14. "Guest poster"? Come on, John, give us a break. You're really scraping now.

    (looks like he's about to go postal, folks)

    ReplyDelete
  15. We're not hyper-defensive, we just know b.s. when we see it. And now you're piling on another layer. "Guest poster" -- puleeeze!

    ReplyDelete
  16. SHAM BLOG POST EXPOSED BEFORE SUNUP

    Columnist John Frenaye, an avid anti MLM zealot, today attempted to hoodwink his readers into believing he actually conducted an interview with a person not in his head - one Robert Fitzgerald - who purportedly opined on Travel and MLMs (a bad mix?), with a focus specifically on YTB International, Inc. of Wood River, IL. While Mr. Fitzgerald's reputation as a poet, critic and translator is well known, there is no record of his position on Travel and MLM's, nor of his view on YTB. But for good reason, as alert readers soon discovered: Robert Fitzgerald died in his Connecticut home after a long illness in 1985! They also revealed the actual words used in the post were from a three-year old radio interview of a Robert FitzPatrick, a former seminary student and sociology major, who John Frenaye 'caught up with' (three years ago?). Not suprising, Mr. FitzPatrick made no mention of how MLM's-and-travel and/or YTB are affecting society or the economy.

    UPDATE: JOHN FRENAYE TAKES ON A PSUEDO IDENTITY TO COVER UP A TYPO. Several hours after John Frenaye was exposed as a plagiarist, his alter-ego, who identifies herself as Kate Holmes, emerged and took responsibility for the 'typo' which led readers to believe that Mr. Frenaye interviewed Robert Fitzgerald (1910-1985). This perhaps explains why John Frenaye is hawking provocative and revealing women's clothing on his blog -- a few favorites that John, er, Kate likes to wear around the house, I'm sure.

    ReplyDelete
  17. Yup, you all prove Ms Holmes point to a tee!

    thank you YTB.

    ReplyDelete
  18. Aw, come on. What's the matter, John? Afraid a little plagiarism might mess up your gig at MSNBC?

    ReplyDelete
  19. Just because I sell women's clothing on my website doesn't mean I'm a transvestite!

    ReplyDelete
  20. It's so sad really. Here the YTBers work so hard to convince themselves that they've made a good choice that they can not see the forest for the trees.......

    Attack the messenger instead of the message, keep at it, you just illustrate Fitzgerald's point over and over again.

    ReplyDelete
  21. Well, anon, I would love to attack the message but there is NOTHING in the message related to TRAVEL MLMS. PERIOD. So, what else to do?

    So, I won't attack Fitzpatrick because I don't know him or of his work. But, JOhn and his ilk deliberately posting a "quote" as if he interviewed the subject is wrong.
    Second, John (er Kate) putting in the intro to the quote that Mr. FitzPatrick was asked about travel, when in fact he was not, is a misleading, intellecutally dishonest attempt to try prove a point.

    And, I didn't drink any kool-aid to spot BS. No one played to my emotions to come to that decision. I call a spade a spade and JOHN"S spade is shovelling more BS today

    ReplyDelete
  22. Wow. Been gone a bit training new agents and I see nothing has changed. So lets see if I can get this straight. Its ok to attack TTA's and call us liars, ugly, washed up, old hens, transvestites (thats a new one), etc but for John to do it was wrong. I still haven't seen any evidence to prove him wrong. Then a new poster comes on board today, and instantly shes John in disguise, lets attack her.

    Why is it you all cry BS when you "think" something is against or wrong. But when PROVEN (ie Seligman) it is wrong, nobody says squat?

    As for Doug's Dear John post, that was wrong as well. Because countless times on this very blog YTBers have viciously attacked TTA's some of which are mothers, single mothers, single fathers etc..and nobody said a word. Why is this woman different, because shes a supposed minister? Religious folks don't lie, mislead, hurt anyone? Please tell me the difference?

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  23. Well then, shall we ask Mr Fitzpatrick what he thinks about travel mlms? I imagine his reaction would be much the same as with any mlms. Remember, it's not that YTB sells travel that is the issue. The issue is the mlm model that uses travel sales as a means to increase the dowmlines and enrich the uplines. The methods are as explained in the post. YTB, Traverus et all are manipulating people for their own enrichment. Remember, at least 80% of your 'valued' base fails. Somehow you all keep forgetting or overlooking that. When recruiting, how honest are you with pointing out the percentages? Yeah, that's what I thought.
    the more you all post, the more this topic is proven correct. Good post John and Kate.

    ReplyDelete
  24. I am sure mr. Fitzpatrick would have a problem with travel MLMs as he has a problem with MLMs in general, my issue is with John's post creating an issue that hasn't been discussed. Mr. Fitzpatrick never alluded to the supposed question that was asked of him. Yet, John(kate) whomever, made it seem that the author was asked AND addressed that issue.

    Also, I don't think anyone should be calling anyone a liar, but JOhn is the one doing the reporting and he has made statements that turned out to be untrue, which is what he was accusing Regina of doing, and that hasn't even turned out untrue. Yet he wouldn't say that she made a mistake, he instantly called out the Liar Liar pants on fire nonsense.
    You TTAs think we have a clouded overzealous judgement, I would argue the other way around.

    ReplyDelete
  25. I have to say that I find it very entertaining that a couple of posters don't believe that I am a real person, and that John is posting in disguise. I did in fact speak with Mr. FitzPatrick on more than one occasion. Perhaps you'd like a copy of my phone bill??
    I know it's a long way off, but I will probably be in Las Vegas for the Luxury Travel Show in Las Vegas if you would like to meet in person.
    The point of the post again, is that any mlm can be deceptive and horribly damaging to it's members. This is not an issue that relates to only YTB, although with a failure rate of over 80%, you do seem to have more of it than most. Don't I get any extra points for NOT just making this out to be a YTB problem??

    ReplyDelete
  26. So post the darn facts that what Ms Osai said was the gods honest truth, get a retraction from John and get it over with!!!!
    And would you please remember this is John's blog and he can say what he likes and thanks to being fair, you can say what you like too. Go back to sugarland and post with Doug if you want your opinion constantly validated.

    So what about the 80% failure rate? A lie? An untruth? How do you explain this fact when you are recruiting? Or do you even care?

    To quote the master of spin:
    Now shoo...

    ReplyDelete
  27. "In his book “False Profits” FitzPatrick examines the persuasion techniques of these mlm recruiters, and devastating effects of mlm addiction."

    Are any of you traditionalists familiar with Robert Kiyosaki? I guess not since most TTA's have the "I want to remain an employee and take orders" attitude were Robert encourages folks to become business owners. Since Mr. Fitzgerald has been six feet under for the past 33 years, maybe it's time to look at someone fresh (no pun intended). Robert and his wife Kim have been financially successful over the past several years in real estate. Robert recently co-authored a book with Donald Trump. Why would Mr. Kiyosaki recommend getting involved with an "MLM" as he does?

    This topic is just another feeble attempt by John Kate to attempt to discredit the network marketing industry and an 8 year old travel company called YTB. Even the "thugs" and "goons" have nothing to say.

    OleScorekeeper

    ReplyDelete
  28. So what about the 80% failure rate Ole?

    And really, YTB has enough thugs and goons without looking outside the compound for more.

    What about the failure rate Ole?

    I LOVE more attempts to discredit the Travel MLMs! Keep them coming!

    What about the failure rate Ole?

    ReplyDelete
  29. "I guess not since most TTA's have the "I want to remain an employee and take orders" attitude were Robert encourages folks to become business owners."

    You don't know what you are talking about - I know at least 40 TTA's, and almost all of them OWN THEIR OWN BUSINESS.

    So what about the 80% failure rate Ole?

    ReplyDelete
  30. Perhaps the reason there was no specific mention of YTB in the article/conversation with Mr. Fitzpatrick, is because it is 3 years old. YTB was just a pimple on the buttocks of the MLM industry at that time...and far from worthy as a topic of conversation.

    ReplyDelete
  31. Ole I am amazed at the time you spend here defending Crotch and the gang. Are you on the payroll pal or what? You are convincing any of us anything. We don't like you and your drivel isn't going to change any of our opinions of you or YTB.

    ReplyDelete
  32. Anon said, "You don't know what you are talking about - I know at least 40 TTA's, and almost all of them OWN THEIR OWN BUSINESS."

    Wow 40..sweet! Now did you know there are over 80,000 TTA order takers in the US? At least of them is called...Eddie.

    So what about the 80% failure rate Ole?

    That's been discussed to death. You guys need some new material. ;>)

    Traveling? Why pay a travel agent $30 to $100 more in fees for that airline ticket when you can go on-line and book it yourself and help fight cancer too! Click on this link...
    OleScorekeeper

    ReplyDelete
  33. I don't know where you got the idea that traditional travel agents want to remain order takers and employees. That hardly describes our business model at all.

    ReplyDelete
  34. Anon said, "We don't like you.."

    Anon.. come real close...take a good look into the OleScorekeepers eye. Now, let me ask you this. DO YA SEE ANYBODY IN THERE THAT CARES? ;>)

    OleScorekeeper

    ReplyDelete
  35. "Guest poster"? Come on, John, give us a break. You're really scraping now.

    (looks like he's about to go postal, folks)"

    I personally know Ms. Holmes. She is a very respected TTA in our city and is highly regarded in the travel agent community. I am not mentioning the city because frankly you YTB people scare me.

    As to your comments about TTA's wanting to be order takers that is the funniest thing I have heard all day. We are business owners who do much more than that. You YTB RTA's really are clueless about the travel industry which is why you should not be in it.

    ReplyDelete
  36. Anon said, "I personally know Ms. Holmes. She is a very respected TTA in our city and is highly regarded in the travel agent community."

    FYI..."Respected TTA" is considered to be an oxymoron on this blog. You may wish to inform her of this fact.

    OleScorekeeper

    ReplyDelete
  37. We are all well aware that most YTBers have no respect at all for travel agents or this profession.
    Again, the post was to demonstrate how damaging any mlm can be, not just the almighty YTB.
    Have you ever thought that your statements may reflect poorly on other YTBers that are not as immature as you are? Should we assume all YTBers are jerks based on your comments alone?
    You get angry and defensive anytime something negative is written about YTB. On this rare occasion when the post is not directed at YTB, you're still mad. Are you just not getting enough attention scorekeeper??

    ReplyDelete
  38. "FYI..."Respected TTA" is considered to be an oxymoron on this blog. You may wish to inform her of this fact."

    Ms. Holmes IS respected among her peers and the business community. Something which you will never have Ole.

    Martha was 100% correct in calling you an ASS Ole. Not only are you an ASS but you are mean and nasty person. God help you!

    ReplyDelete
  39. No RTa 'owns' his/her own business. that's a laugh! You rent a little website and hopefully recruit one or two people to play along. You do as coach tells you morning, noon and night or there is no weekly income. Make all the snide remarks you want Ole, youre still just an RTA with a cookie cutter website. Your opinion of me and my business has no bearing. You are not qualified to judge as you do not work in the industry.

    So why DO 80% fail Ole? Because they are lousy business people? Because they can't refer? Because they don't have any more money to throw away? Because they were lied to?
    Mlms and travel don't mix. I hear energy is hot now!

    ReplyDelete
  40. Anonymous said..."We are all well aware that most YTBers have no respect at all for travel agents or this profession.

    Not true. The OleScorekeeper has the utmost respect for the 79,990 TTA's who don't frequent this blog.

    Have you ever thought that your statements may reflect poorly on other YTBers that are not as immature as you are?

    OleScore can't read your mind. What "statements" are you referring to?

    Should we assume all YTBers are jerks based on your comments alone?

    Aww come on Anon..would that be fair? ;>)

    You get angry and defensive anytime something negative is written about YTB.

    OleScore never gets "angry". But I will defend YTB from the lies, misinformation, and the crank pot-shots put forth by the 10 Bozo TTA's that hang here.

    On this rare occasion when the post is not directed at YTB, you're still mad.

    "Not directed at YTB"? Anon, you need to go back and read what Ms Kate said from the very beginning..."We are also trying to understand why so many YTBers are so defensive of YTB It's very clear this topic was dedicated to YTB. I love it!

    Are you just not getting enough attention scorekeeper??

    Oh, I'd say it's about the right amount for now. ;>)

    OleScorekeeper
    One Good Old Ass

    ReplyDelete
  41. Ole, you're not an ass, you are just a silly little rta looking to make some waves in the big boy pool. go recruit some failures for coach. now, shoo.

    ReplyDelete
  42. Dear TTA's;

    Please understand Ole needs help and refuses to get it. I have tried for years to get him to admit he has a problem and it became worse with his association with YTB. I can't throw him on the street because he does not make enough money to take care of himself. My friends and relatives have all but abandoned us. He has no life outside of this blog. I hope you will pray for him and my famiy and I wish you all well.

    Sincerely,
    Mrs. Ole

    YTB is the curse and down fall of my marriage.

    ReplyDelete
  43. That's funny! :>)

    OleScorekeeper

    ReplyDelete
  44. Kate, you are missing the point. I am sure Fitzpatrick wouldn't like YTB. I believe you are a real person.

    Here is the point.....the actual blog post where you insinuate that not only did you interview Fitzpatrick, but on this specific topic of travel and MLM (notice I didn't say YTB as you want points for not picking on one company. Well, it turns out that the qyote you used as your "answer" from him was 3 years old from a canned radio interview he did with someone else about his book and not about travel and MLMs.

    So, my point was that the basis of the entire blog post was deceptive and based on dishonesty. All, one day after John called someone a Liar. That's my point!

    ReplyDelete
  45. The information that was posted on the blog was from an email that I received from him on 4/22 at 10:02 a.m. It could very well be that it is the same info that was in a radio broadcast a couple of years ago, but this is the statement that he sent.
    Regardless of when it was written, it still holds a lot of truth. Just because something was written a long time ago doesn't mean that it doesn't mean that it no longer holds true. Ask any bible thumper!

    ReplyDelete
  46. Kate:

    You must be the one that cut and pasted the excerpt from that same three year old transcript as an anonymous poster on 4/22 at 11:47 am under "Hardball Questions for MLM "Agents" (7th post)

    ReplyDelete
  47. You guys need therapy. First of all, Tom Cruises wife is KATIE HOLMES not Kate. Secondly, Nicole Kidman would be Nic, not Nick (that would be a dude), thirdly, its PARIS HILTON not Hutton ya moron.

    If your going to attempt to be funny, ya need to get the names of the players straight.

    ReplyDelete
  48. You're so not hot, Anon!

    ReplyDelete