Tuesday, April 22, 2008
Hardball Questions For MLM "Agents"
I want to take some time and ask some questions of the MLM fans that read this blog. It is not about YTB but any of them. It is obvious that I do not understand what it is you see in this program. You are not making any money and to be honest, there mare more people that shun you than accept you. So let me pose a few questions and comments to you.
You have invested some money and a good amount of time into your new "business" and this presumably was based on the assumption that with money and time invested, you could be making a respectable amount of money. Why is it that the vast majority of you are not earning that $5000 a month you expected? I venture to say that at this point you would be happy with $5000 a year--right? What about your downline? I Bet you figured you would have a lot more in your downline than your have. Right? I also bet you thought you would have more travel leads than you could handle because of the fabulous website provided for your hard earned money. Right? Of course you did. Remember, it was the perfect opportunity at the right time? Well then why aren't you making any money?
I have heard the pitch and seen the fervor. I am guessing when you signed up, your Upline told you to make a list of 50 or 100 of your friends and family--hand out brochures, CDs, magazines, and business cards. You probably distributed another $1000 worth of collateral. What are you seeing for that $1000?
What about your website? And that fantastic back office that would handle all the financial aspects of your slice of the 7 trillion dollar travel pie? Did you buy some professional looking business cards--after all if you are claiming to be a professional, you ought to at least look the part. Did you figure that your website would be churning out the commissions while you slept? Did you envision walking into the local Mercedes dealership and plopping down $70K in cash for a new car? Maybe buying that dream house for cash? Of course it was all possible when you see the directors making two, three or four million dollars in a year.
How did you drive business to your site? Did you purchase some "guaranteed" leads that were "on sale" for a "limited" time and available only to "you"? How much did they cost? How many $10 admissions did you pay to see a recruitment presentation at a local hotel? How many times did you attend some seminar or other to reinvigorate your business? Did you pay to travel to one of the conventions or a training program or two, three or four?
Do these words make you think? Do they hurt?
I am not looking to negate any dreams of riches you have. I am all for the success of everyone. But, let's face it, if you are anything but a superstar, you are not making any reasonable money. One of the MLM companies freely admits that 80.92% of their participants make no money. And more frightening is that 99.6% of the participants earned less than $1850 for the year. Are you beginning to think something may be amiss here yet?
Here's another question to ponder. If the business of selling travel via a website is so lucrative--after all all you need to do is refer people to it--why wouldn't the company just do it themselves? Hmm, makes one wonder doesn't it? And suppose the website does not perform as promised or expected? Well, maybe that is one of the secrets that management is not telling.
Have you listened to the tales of success from the directors? I have listened to several of them and the story was all the same. They told you what to do. How to work the MLM program and you too could be wealthy selling travel. But do they practice what they preach? Are they out recruiting their family and friends, or are they merely putting pressure on their downline to feather their pockets? With such a small number of people making money in the MLM program, it seems that these people may not be telling you all you need to know to succeed. Do you think? Maybe they are teaching you what to do, but not what they are doing. There is a difference.
So, why do participants of the MLM model just blindly follow the leader? I don't mean to pick on Doug, but here is a guy who presumably got into YTB to make a buck. I remember reading a press release when he "fired his boss". I am sorry, but unless I had every intention of being successful, I am not sure I would have taken that step--unless there was a trust fund or a gravely ill wealthy relative lurking somewhere. So it is reasonable to assume he wanted to be successful. The guys is eloquent. He is intelligent. He does not put up ridiculous YouTube videos. I don't think he drives a Cocaine White Bentley--or if he does he has enough class to no brag about it. He seems genuinely interested in helping his customers plan their travel. He has been doing this for over three years and seems to have been left in the dust. Looking at averages, he should be a Level 3 Director earning an average of $459,000 a year from recruiting alone. But after more than three years, he is a Coaches Corner member earning an average of $20K. I am not knocking $20K..hell it is more than I took home in 2002. But if I had fired my boss and after three years I was making less than $10 per hour, I would have to think long and hard prior to investing more time and energy.
So with 246K people not earning any money, why aren't you asking questions? The facts hurt, I know. But as everyone has said you need to treat it as a business. Isn't it time to be businesspeople and start demanding answers to some very basic questions?
Labels:
Corporate Governance,
False Claims,
Liability,
MLM,
Travel,
Traverus,
YTB
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I think that all mlm speeches do a great job of "selling the dream." People get sucked into that, and throw down their money, and then continue to throw down their money every month because they believe if they can just make the right change within THEMSELVES they will make millions like the guy who got them to join in the first place. And most people hang onto the mlm because no one wants to admit that they have failed, or that they were suckered.
ReplyDeleteBut the reality is, that most mlm participants never make a dime. Even really smart, well educated people who join, never make a cent. It's because selling is hard. And getting someone to join an mlm is even harder.
Some people even become addicted to mlms. An mlm addiction can be just as destructive as a drug addiction. There are people who have litteraly lost everything because of their mlm addiction.
How do you know Doug is making the "average" Coach's Corner income, and is not the highest paid in Coach's Corner earning over $218,000 a year? If we are to follow your illogical and unrealistic assumption, then you, John, are making $29,160 per year as a travel agent - $14/hr (U.S. Department of Labor Bureau of Labor Statistics 2006)
ReplyDeleteAnd you've been a travel agent for how long? 10 years? And you make less than $30k per year? Can you say "Welcome to Wal-Mart?"
Johnny, Johnny, Johnny. Don't you know that the benefit of the increased tax deductions are far greater than the cost of being in YTB?
ReplyDeleteJohn, you aren't even consistent in you own flawed analysis. The 'average' Coach's Corner person made $20,449 in 2007, working an 'average' 10 hours per week. That's $39.33 per hour. What's wrong with that?
ReplyDeleteWell, I am not going to address each of John's questions but I will say this.....I have 84 RTAs in my downline. I have been with YTB for 15 months totally part time. I got involved just to make a few extra bucks each month. I have done that. I didn't join to make 5k per month, but when that happens I will be very happy.
ReplyDeleteI have signed up a total of 86 RTAs in that 15 month period so only 2 have dropped out. I can say that about 60 or more have joined not to make money to support their families, but to make a few bucks on the side with little effort. Each of those folks would fall under that TTAs assumption of "making no money". But, they are making more than it costs them. Period. So, if, with no effort a few of your friends were to buy from your website over travelocity and at the end of the day you made even one dollar, well then it worked for you. I will add, that if you put in tons of time and effort and only profit the buck, then it is a failure for you. But, every single one of my RTAs in my downline are happy with their decision despite the fact that only 4 have achieved the 6 needed to get the free website.
Once again, it's not about selling travel, it's about selling websites and building downlines. Professionalism is unimportant and unnecessary. All the travel mlms are an embarrassment to the industry. Considering the emphasis on the recruiting process, I am not surprised at the failure rate.
ReplyDeleteIn American we tend to equate wealth with goodness. So, when a scheme promises wealth it is like promising salvation, a validation for living. Many of us harbor deep seated longings for wealth and independence and are also deeply frustrated and disappointed that we have not achieved it. MLM unleashes these desperate hopes, frustrations and longings. As you see, it is a shameless manipulation. MLM goes after your very soul. It does indeed have the power of a cult. It uses many techniques -- repetition of aphorisms, strong hierarchical leadership, bombardment with recognition, a phony "community" and a promise of financial salvation, and most of all strict control over thinking and behavior -- that are classic brain washing and cult tactics.
ReplyDeleteJohn--wasting your breath. Coach did not call this play so whatever you say is wrong.
ReplyDeleteI will beat Proud To Be YTB to the punch....HA PROVED WRONG AGAIN!
"It uses many techniques -- repetition of aphorisms, strong hierarchical leadership, bombardment with recognition, a phony "community" and a promise of financial salvation, and most of all strict control over thinking and behavior -- that are classic brain washing and cult tactics.
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry -- I didn't know we were talking about Microsoft!
Call what play? Who mentioned Coach? Do you mean coaches corner?
ReplyDeleteThe bard of scam.com?
Sorry, anon, you haven't proven any one wrong, just made no sense yourself. and anon 2, you are just plain foolish and have obviously never worked for a company like Microsoft. No doubt you do not have the needed skills.
With half my brain tied behind my head, I'm here to humbly pick apart the first paragraph of, Hardball Questions For MLM "Agents".
ReplyDeleteJohn said, "I want to take some time and ask some questions of the MLM fans that read this blog. It is not about YTB but any of them. It is obvious that I do not understand what it is you see in this program. You are not making any money and to be honest, there mare more people that shun you than accept you."
I thought you said, "it is not about YTB but any of them". I suppose you meant MLM's in general. Then again, I read further and apparently it IS about YTB. Perhaps you would make a better politician then a travel agent. ;>)
John said, "It is obvious that I do not understand what it is you see in this program."
I gave your question some thought and you know John, I believe you DO understand what people see in the program. It's been explained to you by YTB REP's and RTA's as far back as the resurrection of Lazarus. I'm curious as to why you still "do not understand". Maybe you should just let it go.
John said, "You are not making any money..."
Who is "you"? This has been explained to you in depth. The ones who works makes the money. The ones who don't..don't!
John said, "..and to be honest, there mare more people that shun you than accept you."
What statistics do you have to back that up? Besides, shun means to "keep away from" or "take pains to avoid". That certainly does not apply to you and the rest of your supporters on this blog...now does it? lol! So, who are these people that shun YTB.
That sure was easy. Olescorekeeper only guarantees a shoot-down accuracy of 98%, but darn..I think we hit near one hundred on this one! ;>)
OleScorekeeper
Olescrotchkeeper - How much did you make last year from YTB? Since you refuse to tell us who or where you are, you can share this information. I've asked you twice before and you refuse to answer that question right along with how much you've given to your cancer charity. Care to come clean? I think it's time. You sure have the time to answer the questions.
ReplyDeleteYou're going to ask how much I made as a TTA. In 2007, my earnings were $58,200. The year before it was $47,900. I got really lucky last year with a huge booking for a H.S. reunion on a cruise. Hopefully that will happen again but so far this year, my sales are down. Your turn.
Ole scorekeeper I don't think you shot down much of anything. In fact, I believe you verified a lot of the info in this blog. People get sucked into believing the mlm dream, and defend it like mad regardless of the fact they are making no money.
ReplyDeleteMany industry leaders, such as ASTA, RCCL, Perillo and others have clearly shunned the mlm travel model. Over 3000 traditional agents shunned it this summer via a petition. (there, you wanted a number, I gave you one)
If you would like more numbers, such as consumers who have been burned by mlms, number of people in YTB who made no money last year, we can give you some of those numbers as well.
Keep on drinking the Kool-aid ole scorekeeper.
ytbnomore said..."anon 2, you are just plain foolish and have obviously never worked for a company like Microsoft. No doubt you do not have the needed skills."
ReplyDeleteA helicopter was flying around above Seattle yesterday when an electrical malfunction disabled all of the aircraft's electronic navigation and communication equipment. Due to the clouds and haze the pilot could not determine his position or course to steer to the airport. The pilot saw a tall building, flew toward it, circled, drew a handwritten sign and held it in the helicopter's window. The sign said "WHERE AM I ?" in large letters.
People in the tall building quickly responded to the aircraft, drew a large sign and held it in a building window. Their sign said, "YOU ARE IN A HELICOPTER." The pilot smiled, waved, looked at his map and determine the course to steer to SEATAC airport and landed safely.
After they were on the ground, the co-pilot asked the pilot how the "YOU ARE IN A HELICOPTER" sign helped determine their position. The pilot responded, "I knew that had to be the MICROSOFT building because they gave me a technically correct but completely useless answer."
Martha - Even if Ole gives you an answer to your questions about how much she made, I wouldn't trust it. I put that piece in about her favorite charity yesterday, and if it was good and proper cancer research foundation don't you think she would have been just a little peeved. She doesn't care about people, in my opinion...and either won't answer your question or the answer will be less than upfront.
ReplyDeleteThat's a good joke Anon. But if you want to equate the YTB website with Microsoft XP, then you really do need those laughs! Hey, you wouldn't even have a website without Bill, but oodles have websites without coach. I guess your one of the 80%.
ReplyDeleteSome anon said, "Many industry leaders, such as ASTA, RCCL, Perillo and others have clearly shunned the mlm travel model."
ReplyDeleteHey anon, John said, "..there are more people that shun you than accept you."
And anon, your comments didn't support Johns supposition.
Just considering YTB REP's and RTA's, there are over 130,000 who "accept" YTB and you know report over 3000 traditional agents shunned it this summer via a petition. Not very impressive to say the least considering there are over 80,000 TTA's in the United States.
And ASTA, RCCL, Perillo a mere drop in the bucket considering the myriads of other vendors and suppliers who love doing business with YTB.
Good try anon. Now go fish. ;>)
OleScorekeeper
So how does YTB drive clients to their and you websites? I thought I'd do a little searching on Google:
ReplyDeleteso, search "Travel Packages" - first page of results, no YTB. Second page, no YTB in the non-sponsored results,but it was in the "Sponsored Links" - the 15 th one - not very likely many people will get to that.
I search Cruises - no appearance at all on the first three pages - didn't look farther than that as it is unlikely any consumer would. Doesn't show up in any of the sponsored links.
Tried Carnival Cruises - there were only 12 Sponsored Links - YTB not one of them and they don't show up in the first three pages of results at all.
Tried China Tours - no YTB by the end of third page or in the 23 Sponsored Links.
Tried Cheap Vacation - no YTB in the first 3 pages and not in any of the 16 Sponsored Links.
I realize this can change with every search, but I think that were a member of YTB, I'd be a little upset. Apparently - or at least it looks as though - they are being few if any "key words" or "meta tabs" to drive people to their main website, which one would assume, would then drive people to members' sites based on zip code or area code(?). So that means the only way someone can get to your site is if you have made contact with them. Now we all have families and friends, but if we're selling memberships to them and they have their own site, how much business is getting done on your site?
How are they driving business to you - do they care?
ASTA is one of the most respected organizations in the industry. YTB may have had over 140,000 join, but you have a staggering amount of failures. I think I would rather have the endorsement of one really well respected organization that of over 100,000 failures.
ReplyDeleteMany venders and suppliers don't love you, ole. Those who have visited my office (and I always bring up YTB) either don't know who you are, say they tolerate you, or would rather you disappeared. Just yesterday, with one of your faves, the response to my question was 'they don't know what they are doing. I'm a sales rep and the few calls I get want ME to do the booking and send it to them. that's their job, not mine.' Just because they come to your shows and set up booths doesn't mean you are at the top of the line. they come to my office too and I'm small fry compared to some. It's business, nothing more. You want respect. Get it from Dr Seligman.
ReplyDeleteI just came up with a new selling point for YTB! Sell bottled AIR! That's it bottled air! You know ole Crotch will claim that "EVERYONE" will need air eventually! Wooo...maybe I should contact the back office....
ReplyDeleteOldcrotchkeeper - 0
ReplyDeletemartha - about 60 and counting.
What a jerk for avoiding all questions asked. When he can't back something up, it's deflect as with all YTB members.
"It is obvious that I do not understand what it is you see in this program."
ReplyDelete....still doesn't get it (but at least he admits it). I think it's time we all stop trying to spoonfeed the benighted and implacable.
YTBSCAM said...Wooo...maybe I should contact the back office....Back Office
ReplyDelete"I think that all mlm speeches do a great job of "selling the dream." People get sucked into that, and throw down their money, and then continue to throw down their money every month because they believe if they can just make the right change within THEMSELVES they will make millions like the guy who got them to join in the first place."
ReplyDelete....and what's your plan for making millions? How close are you to your dreams?
Actually I have exceeded my financial sales goals for the year already.
ReplyDeleteAnd I have an IATA and can book with any wholesaler I want. My i.c.s are well trained and add to my reputation. In fact our clients pay a retainer for our services up front, and can't say thank you enough.
Our company and website are unique, not some cookie cutter site. I keep 100% of my commissions, rather than forking over some of my hard earned money to a guy in another state so he can buy a plane.
My plan is to continue to grow with our integrity in tact. Can you say the same??
Just words anyone can write. Care to show us how unique your web site is? Didn't think so.
ReplyDeleteYTB reminds me of the old boat my Dad used to own. He kept pouring money into it for dockage, gasoline, repairs, insurance and what not. Half the time it was in for repairs but that was his dream. Finally, my Mother got so fed up with all the money going in she threatened to literally cut him off. He got the hint. Too bad YTB can't get the hint. I guess Coach needs the money more than the average RTA to tool around in his private jet and laze in his huge mansion..
ReplyDeleteOlescorekeeper---you said Who is "you"? This has been explained to you in depth. The ones who works makes the money. The ones who don't..don't!
ReplyDeleteThank you. You have just confirmed that the program does NOT work for the VAST majority.
The program definitely works, but people have to work the program. Just like a diet, workout program, savings plan, building a house, playing a musical instrument, studying martial arts, or any business -- it requires a love for what you do, lots of effort, dedication, determination and consistency to be successful.
ReplyDelete(... alas, he still doesn't get it)
What John should have said is that the vast majority do not work the program. That would be a true statement. If there was something wrong with the program, why does it work for some and not others?
ReplyDeleteIt's working for me.
The RTA program is a joke...
ReplyDeleteThe combined effort of all RTAs last year was a loss of 90 million dollars. Thats the net result from 139,000 RTAs that were still there at the end of the year and the 67,000 that quit.
Thats Million with an M
Just add up the fees the RTAa paid and the Travel comissions they recieved from the annual report...
Big John,
ReplyDeleteI think you seriously have a problem, being the Guru and all! And you are such a Jerk and a DreamStealer Extraodinaire!
Obviously, you can't make any money doing work of any kind (because you are too busy slinging mud at MLM's), But you probably make some serious dollars on your right sidebar - Google Adsense. Quite a following.
Here's the deal. Out of 100 people turning 65 in the workforce that are from any business, only 3 are at the top. Yes, three end up with money and one of them is usually well off! HMMM, is that 97% failure?
Yes, what that means is TTA, CTA, MCC or RTA the average is the same. The whole deal is Life is Life and some people are born to try to shatter everyone's dreams.
You don't have a clue how much money Doug or any other person makes. In as much as being the unadulterated expert (in your own mind), you are clueless.
I am not pointing the finger totally at you, Johnny. Most of these blog posters have so much negativity, you obviously feel threatened by the whole thing of YTB, Traverus, Pro travel and World Ventures. By the way, they do a great job of slamming each other. Why don't you all spend more time being the Super Agent that you propose you are!
Have you set down and looked at your own income? I'll bet each of you didn't have to pay huge quarterly's to Uncle Sam.
You know, YTB and World Ventures list their earnings, why doesn't any other companies do that? How about you Johnny? Can you send us a copy of your 1040 and let us see what you earned on Travel income? I'll bet the Adsense monies are greater!
Here is the real deal. Get on with your life. when you are pointing the finger at someone, three are pointing back at you!
Oh enough of the small talk..Get a life!
Anonymous person from Anonymous town and from an Anonymous company...
It's Johns blog and he can say, surmise and point out anything he likes. Want to do the same? Start your own blog! I, personally, like this blog and contributing to it. At least opposing comments are posted unlike at other blogs where if you don't agree with the blog owner you aren't allowed to post.
ReplyDeleteI certainly do not feel threatened by YTB. I would welcome YTB if they dropped the mlm thing and focused on selling travel.
I don't feel threatened by Doug (I cannot call him TravelPro because he is not one) either. He is all mlm and nothing else counts, certainly not the travel biz. Why not post over there and be his buddy. He seems to need some.
I am a TTA (CTA is a real designation - not using the fake Traverus one) and I have been paying quarterly estimated taxes for about 12 years - not usre that really means anything other than that I have to pay in, rather than get money back. Paying quarterly is just an easier way to swallow that payment. AND I own a historic home on Cap. Hill in DC, AND I am already set for retirement at age 48, though I can't imagine why I would retire before 70 -I like working! There are plenty of real (not RTA) TAs who are in similar positions. It's really hysterical that you MLM-types can't seem to believe that.
ReplyDeleteBut really, what in the world was your point anyway?
"Have you set down and looked at your own income? I'll bet each of you didn't have to pay huge quarterly's to Uncle Sam."
Are you trying to say that real TAs can't possibly find themselves in that position?
As for the points about YTB - I am not in the least bit threatened though I admit I would feel less antagonistic if they dropped the MLM part of the business and actually focused on selling travel and making money that way.
CTA in MD
Anon (hiding rather than registering) said, "Here's the deal. Out of 100 people turning 65 in the workforce that are from any business, only 3 are at the top. Yes, three end up with money and one of them is usually well off! HMMM, is that 97% failure?"
ReplyDeleteNot a good analogy. the 97% that are not at the top in the workforce still probably made a decent living wage and supported the family on that wage. While they didn't get rich, they survived just fine.
The 97% in MLM travel end up with nothing, or worse they spend money to get nothing. Thus they don't support their family.
Please don't argue back about part-time business and all that, because that doesn't work with your analogy then either.
"Oh enough of the small talk..Get a life!"
ReplyDeleteGuess what anonymous we have lives so does John. Problem is you THINK you do. And you don't. IMO, you are pretty pathetic staying with a company that pays you little or nothing on your return.
And like CTA and Steve I am NOT threatened by any of you YTB RTA's. I live in a 3,500 square foot house, have a great credit score, pay my bills on time and send my kids to a private high school and college. I also drive a fairly new Lexus SUV paid for by travel earnings and savings. Oh, almost forgot my IRA's and investments.
As you can see us TTA's are selling travel and doing quite well and are not a bit afraid of you taking our business away. You are bottom feeders. If any of you want to join a legitimate host we will applaud you. Until then shut the heck up!
Anon from Anon--
ReplyDeleteYou say that only 3% retire at the top. That may indeed be true. But you know what, in a real business 97% earn more than zero.
In YTB the majority earn nothing. Yes there needs to be people on the bottom..I understand that, but apparently with YTB, misery loves company, so they keep almost 90% of the people in there earning the big goose egg!
Not sure where I purported to be a superstar agent...maybe you imagined that along with your YTB success.
As to the YTB earnings...I can hypothesize on that--YTB released the numbers!
Round and round we go. Where it stops, noone knows. With John posting the same questions over and over again like a broken record after they have been clearly answered over and over again, it continues to prove the same thing... over and over again...
ReplyDeleteJohn still doesn't get it, and probably never will.
BTW John, great job at bashing our lady RTA/mother/minister and using the graphic of a child giving "the Bird". that was real professional. BTW... next time you try to discredit someone, get your facts first. She's the one who has discredited you.
Publicly traded: YTBLA.OB