For the last couple of years, there has been much debate, some of it civil, but much of it not, about the Multi-Level Marketing (MLM) travel businesses. Much of this debate has centered on how professional or not the MLM agents are. This has been due to the lack of knowledge exhibited, behavior at travel trade shows and conferences, and other things. Unfortunately, I have witnessed the same from some traditional travel agents.So, at least for the purposes of this post, I'd like us all to ignore those aspects of the debate. What I would like to focus on is why do people choose to be part of an MLM travel company rather than become an independent contractor for a host agency. My thesis is that it is all due to the money that can be made for recruiting more and more people to the business. It has very little to do with selling travel, or any other product for that matter. I note that some people call this "selling travel stores" rather than "recruiting".
The typical MLM travel company charges an initial sign-up fee to join as Referring Travel Agent (or some similar name), and then a monthly fee for a travel booking website. In order to comply with laws that regulate MLM companies, they usually have a companion position, available for free, called a Representative (REP or something similar) whose job is to sell those RTA positions. The way the REP makes money is that they get a part of the sign-up fee and possibly part of the mothly fees. In addition, they get bonuses based on the number of RTA positions that they sell, and those of the REPs that are under them sell. The RTA makes money by getting people to book their travel through the website they are renting. In exchange, the company gives them a percentage of the commissions on that travel sale. It is important to note that while there is no requirement for an RTA to also be a REP, generally they are.
What I would like to know is how many people that become RTAs would actually stay with their MLM company if the REP positions and the bonuses were eliminated? Suppose there were a company that would allow you to become a Travel Agent simply by paying a one-time fee of $495 and a fee for a booking website of $49.95 per month. You would earn 60% of all commissions the company earned as a result of travel sales through your website. Since this is MLM, we'll even consider that you would also be paid 10% of all commissions earned by those that you directly recruit to join the company. Would those of you that are RTAs or the equivalent with YTB, Traverus, World Ventures or others want to be part of this company? If so, why? If not, why not?
Suppose there was a Travel Host Agency that would allow you to become a Travel Agent for free. They would give you a travel booking site using the same booking engine as the company above, also for free. You would earn 80% of all commissions the company earned as a result of travel sales that you make through your website. Since this is not MLM, there would be no override for anyone that you recruit. Would you rather work with this company or the MLM? Why?
Remember that for the purposes of these questions, I am assuming that back-office support, training for agents, and all other aspects of the two companies are equal. I am only focusing on the compensation plans. I am not saying that agents shouldn't be trained. I'm just leaving that out of this particular discussion.
Personally, I can't believe that anyone would want to pay an up-front fee of any amount, a monthly fee of any amount, and give up 20% of commissions earned for something they could get for free. Perhaps the lure of the 10% override would do it. But how many people could be recruited that would be willing to pay an up-front fee, a monthly fee, and give up 20% of commissions earned when they could get the same elsewhere for free? I would think the answer is that not many people would choose the MLM described over the host agency described.
So, why do people join the MLM travel companies? Obviously, it is all for the recruiting fees and bonuses. They are exposed to the dream of a large down-line of people doing their work for them, while they collect the recruiting bonuses that get larger and large, the bigger their downline gets. The focus is not on selling travel. If the selling of travel (or some other product) were not there, the whole thing would be an illegal Ponzi scheme. Like any of those schemes, the bulk of the money goes to the founders and those that got in very early. Those that get in late generally do very poorly, unless they can find some new untapped source of new recruits.
The bottom line of all this, is that I would like any MLM "travel agent" to explain to me is why they stay with that company, if all they are really serious about is selling travel? Please explain it only in terms that refer to the compensation you get for selling travel, vs. the expenses you have. Leave the recruiting bonuses and fees out of the equation. If you can't give me an adequate explanation of why you would not do better with another more traditional host agency, then I must assume that the only reason you stay with the MLM company is because of those recruiting bonuses. That would prove my thesis.
It would also prove to the travel suppliers that the MLM travel companies are not really about selling travel. They are really about recruiting, and a little about rebating commissions to themselves and family members for personal travel. Maybe then, they would wake up and stop doing business with those companies.
Note: For those that cannot read, this is another guest post (JF)
Here is why I originally joined YTB. These items are not necessarily in order.
ReplyDelete1. A chance to earn a ton in site sales - translated as "recruiting".
2. The ability to travel as an insider - free or discounted trips as a professional.
3. Being completely new, yes a total noobie, the technology they were using seemed very robust and competitive to anything out there. Upon further examination, I understand I can get the exact same booking engine for free from Travelocity, and earn even more in commissions.
4. I joined for the support group. I was under the impression that my upline was capable of teaching me how to not only recruit...any upline in any MLM has that capacity, but I also thought that I was going to learn how to become a travel professional. Turns out that my upline knew almost nothing about really selling travel. So I eagerly went to the CRTA meetings...trekked all the way from OC to San Diego. I walked away more confused about selling travel, a bit discouraged that it was more about the hype of making money by other methods, and began to realize that becoming a travel professional by YTB had its limitations. (I need to add, paying $200 for the CRTA course that was as weak in travel training as it was, was a huge turn-off!)
5. I also explored the YTB travel back office. At the time I joined it was really bare, a lot of the links didn't work, and there was limited information on how to travel like an insider unless you earned your credentials. I earned my credentials by selling travel (per the California regulations as set by YTB), yet at this time, I am concerned about applying for them with YTB because of their reputation. I may apply for the travel credentials when I become associated with a more reputable company. Granted the information is growing on the back office, however, working with other companies, in other industries, YTB’s travel training back office is so pale in comparison to the professionalism I’ve seen elsewhere. Its look and feel is still confusing, its information and travel material is disparate, and, as a result, I don’t really have the confidence in the site to pay the extra money for the travel videos they are offering. I am afraid that, based on my history with the company, I will continue to be let down. Sorry, I know I may be wrong, but would you take the chance? (I bet a lot of YTB RTA’s haven’t invested in the courses offered for the same reasons.)
6. Finally, cost seemed to be reasonable. Such a strong pitch, I figured that for $500 and the $49.95 I was getting a deal. However, read items 1-5 and you’ll see what I was really getting. (Maybe Moonbeam saw it too?!)
Here is my challenge to YTB. Make travel your primary business focus, not the MLM. Build a reputation that would make TTA’s envious by acting responsible to the industry and by showing it the respect it truly deserves. Currently I feel that YTB is using the travel industry solely as a means to perpetuate its MLM vehicle. Granted travel is probably the most lucrative means, I was attracted to it, however, I now feel a sort of “eck” akin to the slimy sensation often felt when dealing with people like pushy car salesmen and/or greedy mortgage bankers. The “Rah-rah” meetings are so much about recruitment, that travel is clearly YTB’s unwanted stepchild that must remain in its fold to give YTB a reason to exist “legally”. I say this because of the countless opportunities given to YTB RTA’s to genuinely explain travel to me, only to have my questions and concerns deflected to other topics that may, or may not, pad my wallet. I could have joined any MLM, but as noted above, I joined YTB for the perks of the travel industry and the fun and exciting lifestyle that I thought it truly would provide as a member of a strongly supported travel business.
Now, here is my challenge to the readers of this blog. A lot of noobs come to this site reading up on YTB. They look to this site for direction and support, because, let’s face it, there are a lot of issues brought up here, and it is easy to come across when one Google’s the company. But after reading it, frequently I admit, I sometimes hope that someone on this blog would take the initiative to offer dejected YTB RTA’s and/or anyone who is seriously interested in becoming a travel professional, a thorough and more impactful way to truly do what it seems that you guys do to earn such a fine living. I have questions that I think the readers of this blog could truly answer that would waken the disillusioned RTA’s and encourage them to become respected members of your fine industry. Here are a few: Where can I find the hosting agencies you guys “actually use”? (I’ve been referred to some general travel news sites, but I’m still hoping someone will give up the true 411 on the insider methodologies.) Where can I get the kind of training you utilized to become knowledgeable professionals? Who is willing to take a new person under their wing and train them to become the kind of TTA the readers on this site expect individuals to become? And most importantly, where can we find out how to do all this with real costs and expenses detailed?! Let me put it this way. I suspect that if a good site/blog was put together for noobs, that was competitive with the pricing of YTB’s package, yet offered more in training and true substance, several people, like myself would abandon the retarded YTB Travel business model to become true travel professionals.
I understand that several out there may claim that YTB is selling a lot of travel. I suspect that a lot of it is to YTB RTA’s and their immediate family and friends. However, I think that travel sales doesn’t go much further out to the masses. I say this, because look at the money TTA’s are making and the volume being sold via traditional methods, both online and offline. So you RTA’s can say what you want. I gave YTB a year—$2500 in sales and 30 reps under me. I know what’s really going on. I recommend that if you really want to be a travel professional, as I’d like to, we find someone who is truly willing to mentor us with motives completely opposite to those of “Coach’s”. Sure he’s a nice guy, but his goal to make millionaires is primarily via MLM strategies, not so much by selling travel.
VM--I am sure others will chime in as well, but the "vague" travel journals are indeed a good place to start. Go to Travel Trade's website (www.traveltrade.com) and start there. You see, each host is different than the next and what is good for some agent is poor for another. For a noob, I would look to a host that offers training and perhaps a mentor. This likely will come with a backend cost (cut of your commissions) but you can switch later once you are more comfortable. For example, you might get a 70-30 split with training and a mentor, and a 90-10 or 100% split on your own.
ReplyDeleteI have taken some heat in another forum for recommending Joystar. They do have a mentoring program and they have many happy agents. They have other programs as well and it appears that they even have a MLM aspect. Personally I do not like them, but I have heard that for a noob they are very decent. For the agent that has experience, I like Americas's Vacation Center (AVC). They are very professional and keen on training and will feed you leads if you like (again at a slice of your commission).
There are many vendor training programs that will give you product specific information from the ships and destinations to how to book groups with THEIR business and just some general selling tips for THEIR product. These are all good and I would focus on those vendors you choose to be as YOUR preferred.
Yes, choose your vendors--choose the ones with a good reputation, a fair commission, and if you have traveled with them, one that you like and are familiar with. THe problem with YTB is that they take any vendor that is willing to do business with them and that will dilute their share.
As for other training, it is going to cost you. Join CLIA ($399 a year) and partake in their classes (additional cost), if you find you like the industry, look into The Travel Institute and take their TAP test and move up to the CTA, CTC or higher.
When you affiliate with a host, they may have a convention. Or they may be members of a franchise or consortia that has a convention--attend these. THey are inexpensive and offer a wealth of legitimate training--unlike the rah rah seminars at YTB.
Finally, when you see an industry wide convention, attend them. ASTA just had their TRADE SHOW in MCO and it was attended by 2000 agents and hundreds of vendors. (compare to YTB's the following week that was attended by 7500 "agents" and 39 vendors--some of which were not even related to travel) and you begin to see the disparity. Other decent shows are the Home Based TA Shows (one coming up ion October in Baltimore), THe CLIA 360, and the Travel Trade Cruise-A-Thon and the Leisure Travel COnference. I cannot speak for the others but I have heard the Luxury Travel Expo is great if that is your market.
By the way, with hosts, you can have as many as you like. If you earn more with one for Cruise Line A--affiliate with them. If you earn more on land operator B with another host affiliate with them as well. While YTB tries to limit you to them only (it is illegal and may indeed qualify you as an employee and require YTB to pay back taxes, workers comp, unemployment, etc)as an independent, you are allowed to run your business as you see fit.
And when you sign an agreement with any host, if you see a clause (like you see in YTB's agreement) that states that the host ultimately "owns" your clients, run away. Your client list (if they have traveled with you or not) is your lifeblood in this industry.
And finally, in this industry the "living" is adequate. Some excel and will make a lot of money, but a good average agent should be able to pull in $50K a year. There are some outstanding ones that will pull in 6 figures. Not a lucrative industry by any means, but it does have its non-monetary and non-perk related rewards!
VacationMachine: Here are a couple of sites you can goto for lists of Host Agencies.
ReplyDelete1) http://www.homebasedtravelagent.com/Hosts/
2) http://www.nacta.com/hosts/Hosts_By_Alpha.htm
As John noted, each host is different, and some will be geared to more experienced agents and some will be very happy to take on new agents and train them.
You should also look into the many free trade magazines. Some of them have articles from time to time about host agencies, and most have ads for them as well. Some of them are (in no particular order):
1) VacationAgent - http://www.vacationagentmagazine.com
2) Travel Agent - http://www.travelagentcentral.com
3) Home-Based Travel Agent - http://www.homebasedta.com/hbta/
4) Agent@Home - http://www.agentathome.com
John gave you a lot of good information about training sources. For training on particular suppliers, some good free training can be found at:
1) http://www.travelagentacademy.com
2) http://www.tauniv.com
As for host agencies, Joystar has some issues that John briefly mentioned. There is an MLM aspect to one of their programs, and they were at one time cut-off from selling the Royal Caribbean brands. I don't know if they ever got back in good graces with them or not. Also, their CEO does not take criticism of any kind very well, and has been known to kick agents out of the Joystar fold for asking questions that he considers too critical. However, the rest of their staff provides very good support for the new agent.
I have personal experience with both Coral Sands Travel and Cruises and Tours Unlimited (outsideagents.com).
Coral Sands was very good to me when I was a noob. Peter Stilphen has been very vocal about what a good host agency should be or shouldn't be. Some in the industry like him a lot, other's think he is a bit eccentric. Recently he came out and said that having a TRUE number is a waste of money, which I completely disagree with.
I still have a relationship with Cruises and Tours Unlimited. They have training classes via webinar several times per week. Some of those are aimed directly to the new agent to discuss the technology used to make reservations. Others are aimed at travel sales techniques. Still others are supplier seminars. Chad Burt has been particularly helpful at that agency.
There are many other host agencies that are also good for new agents, and I don't mean to promote one over another. Those above are ones I have personal experience with. Go through the lists that I provided above, and do your own research. You can look at my profile and find contact information for me, and I'd be happy to try to answer questions for you, as long as they are truly related to the travel industry and not to the MLM topic and what is right or wrong with it. I'd be willing to bet that many of the other travel agents that frequent this blog would be willing to do the same.
I agree with both John and Steve above, and I'm not going to repeat everything they covered above. I think I had read in a new trade that Nexion is also looking at taking on noobs and training as well. As I've been with the same agency for almost all of my 18 years I can't really elaborate on many hosts.
ReplyDeleteIf you are truly in this industry for the love of travel, then you should look into the suggestions above.
Questions are always welcomed
Nexion has a good program for newbies also.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.nexion.com/
So, where are firemedic, mix, and the other YTB zealots to answer the questions I asked?
ReplyDeleteThey won't answer you. Anytime this question is posed they do not respond or deflect. I believe I saw a response once long ago saying they stay with the MLM for residual reasons. So even though they all preach its all about travel, its usually not, because if it was they would join a respected and true travel host!.
ReplyDeleteThey are busy looking up info on new hosts. Or maybe they are out pounding the pavement selling juice.
ReplyDeleteYou are correct they won't answer.
ReplyDeleteDenyse is another prime example. She posted on here not too long ago she was thinking of joining TPI. She is still with YTB. She and her cohorts "claim" they want to sell travel and be professional. Yet, they won't join a legit host. They openly brag about all the CLIA classes and travel training they have take. They stay with YTB because they make more money recruiting and selling the down line than selling travel.
And, they want us to believe they are serious about selling travel. You can take all the CLIA classes, TAU on-line courses but until you stop the recruiting and join a legit host you are not nor never will be a true travel professional.
Well I just read that some VC firm has been buying up a lot of the YTB stock. With this change, combined with the lawsuit, it will be interesting to see what happens over the next couple of months. Since Kim said that there were looking to "legitimize" the company, obviously they knew they were in deep crap. Maybe this VC firm will take it over and convert it to franchising, or try to convert it to a more traditional host. Either way, I would be surprised if their mlm model is still intact by the end of the year.
ReplyDeleteExcuse my ignorance, but what is a VC firm?
ReplyDeleteVenture Capitalists.they are a group of travel insiders with some financial backing looking to legitimize the company and o away with MLM and transform them to the largest host agency. They have some suppliers in place. With the travel powerhouses that are behind it other suppliers will fall in line and in order to get the IATAN back they need to oust the current management and Board.
ReplyDeleteSounds like a lousy idea if you ask me. The internet articles on the YTB controversy will live forever and any legitimate agent will come across all this nonsense and run for the hills before signing on with them.
ReplyDeleteI think it would be throwing good money after bad.
I am not so sure I agree with you. Depends on the cost I suppose, but if say Amex, or Orbitz or some other entity bought them for literally pennies on the dollar and has a base of 120K RTAs (granted most need treaining and all) and a client list of who knows how much, it could work.
ReplyDeleteToss in a huge travel name as the figurehead and I bet YTB could be turned around fast. Toss out current management and maybe even faster.
What a great idea! They wouldn't have to keep the YTB name either.
ReplyDeleteSo let me get this straight - they will toss out the management and the board, they will toss out the MLM business model, they will attempt to keep the 120K RTA's (who may have only joined for the MLM side of all of this) and they get a "client list" of people who are most likey all the relatives of the 120K RTA's.
ReplyDeleteSeems like a really expensive email list to me!
Hey you guys, GREAT INFO! Printing out this page for all the valuable info and insight. This is what makes a good blog great! I'll be sure to follow up with info and questions as they develop. Again, thanks!
ReplyDeleteBy the way...Eddie hit the nail on the head...anyone interested in some Mona Vie? HA!
ReplyDeleteLittle bird. You have to assume that most of the $414M in travel is booked by 20% or less of the RTAs. So if all of a sudden they shrink to a 12,000 RTA organization legitimately selling $414M of travel it is not that bad of a deal. And what can they retain from the client list of the 138K prior RTAs? Who knows?
ReplyDeleteHey if it is true--it might work
The YTB name in itself is tainted. They would have to change the name. And, what about all the lawsuits? Would a new owner inherit that mess?
ReplyDeleteAgreed the name woudl have to go---who knows about the legal implications. THe class action may be inherited but not the personal ones against Tomer. And I bet the AG might be willing to deal if a legitimate company with a history came in. We will just have to see I guess
ReplyDeleteSo much stock is held by the few insiders, that there is no way anyone could gain control through open market purchases. If the Tomer's and Sorensen don't sell their stock, they can't get thrown out. It really is that simple. So any rumors of a VC firm buying stock to do this are just pipe dreams, not reality.
ReplyDeleteI would say regardless of the stock that with the right price Coach would sell in a heartbeat.
ReplyDeleteIf those from YTB (or any of the other MLM Travel companies for that matter) can't or won't answer the questions that I posed, then I see no reason why anyone, especially the suppliers, should take them seriously. As I stated in my post, they they have proved my thesis that the only reason they are in this is for the recruiting money. And if that is all there really is to this, then it is a pyramid scheme, and AG Brown should have no trouble winning his case.
ReplyDeleteNext topic please....
Okay Steve, I will state my opinion then let John’s “Zealots” get all kinds of riled up. Now your writings were long so touché!
ReplyDeleteFirst thing I will address is your statement “What I would like to focus on is why do people choose to be part of an MLM travel company rather than become an independent contractor for a host agency. My thesis is that it is all due to the money that can be made for recruiting more and more people to the business. It has very little to do with selling travel, or any other product for that matter”
I do believe part of the reason people choose to become part of YTB (you kept saying MLM’s but everything you exampled was YTB) does have to do with the fact of being able to build a team and sell travel. Now, with that said we just need come to the realization that we are speaking two different languages here and most TTA’s won’t understand nor appreciate what is being said. They will attack it out of unawareness but attack as though they know what they are talking about.
See, yes I could choose to get a host agency to sell travel and earn money with the bookings that I create. With that scenario I get to do all the work myself. I depend on my efforts to do all the work and as long as I do all the work I get paid. Problem is just that, I have to do all the work or I don’t get paid. If I can’t sell all the travel myself, I don’t sell travel.
With networking we have the advantage of leveraging our efforts (again, foreign to most people’s way of thinking) just like we can leverage our money in a mutual fund for bank. We earn money off the efforts of other’s efforts. Over time I can develop a team of people to build a strong network of loyal travel customers and I make a small percentage of those efforts. If I do this enough, eventually I could be making the same amount that I would having it done all myself. There is nothing wrong with that. It’s done everyday with franchising and having employees.
See Steve, I AM very interested in selling travel. I do care about my customers and the people I refer to my site. I care about traveling to places and being able to recommend them to my friends and promote different vendors. I also care about the opportunity to develop that network that leverages my time. It’s a business model that has been around for years and any company that uses that model has to go through the same hoops (lies and lawsuits). None of the major networking companies avoid it, so for me it seems we are right on track.
“What I would like to know is how many people that become RTAs would actually stay with their MLM company if the REP positions and the bonuses were eliminated?”
To me this is irrelevant in that, again, speaking two different languages. You are coming from that of a small-business owner or employee type thinking. Again, you have to do all the work therefore you are your own “employee” so-to-speak. If I just wanted to do all the travel bookings myself, I most likely would reconsider, mostly because I am not looking for just another job. I am looking for a way to leverage myself AND be professional AND sell travel. But let’s say that there was a host agency out there that said we will teach you how to sell travel the way it used to be done (TTA) and we will give you a matching bonus from other people that you refer to us, comes to work for us, and sells travel the old way (TTA). Would I be interested…maybe. Again, I am looking to leverage. Problem is, the TTA is not the way 80% of the travel is being done now. It’s being done over the internet. It’s not going to the internet, it’s already there! It’s not going to go back to the way it was any time soon if at all. Therefore, there is a huge market there.
Now, just because we don’t sell travel the way it used to be done does not mean we are not in the travel industry. We still need to know how to work with the vendors and still need to know how and what to recommend to our friends that won’t be in the industry. I mean, we can’t be legitimately recommending something we know very little about (like the TTA’s knowledge of networking).
It’s like the analogy I have used on here before. There used to be full-service gas stations that did all the stuff for the customer. They could make recommendation on repairs needed, check different things, and pump the gas. It also cost more for that service. But then came along someone with the idea of “let’s let them pump their own gas since they are capable and we can charge them less”. Guess how MOST of the people in America get their gas? Just like booking travel. The internet is user-friendly enough for people to do it themselves. Do they get the same personal touch as that of the TTA, no. But the customer that books online doesn’t seem to mind. They feel empowered to do it themselves. Now, many of the TTA’s don’t like that but it’s just the way it is and it most likely won’t go back no matter how much the resist. It’s not personal, it’s just business.
“The focus is not on selling travel.” No, Steve, the focus, for me, is on both the selling of travel and the leveraging capabilities of building that loyal customer base.
“It would also prove to the travel suppliers that the MLM travel companies are not really about selling travel. They are really about recruiting, and a little about rebating commissions to themselves and family members for personal travel. Maybe then, they would wake up and stop doing business with those companies.”
This is where you are wrong Steve. The referral marketing concept is actually booming and suppliers of all kinds of products are compensating, even paying, people to use and suggest their products. I mean, if you can get several thousand people talking about your resort because they have experienced it, how many people are they going to talk to if they experienced a great product? Several fold! I mean, there are companies now that you can sign up with that will send you their product for free in hopes that you will talk about it with your friends.
As far as rebating the commissions to ourselves, yes. I mean, what do you do with your commissions you book travel for yourself?
Steve, your concerns as a TTA, are not much different than that of the financial services industry in the 80’s when a networking company came in and took over the industry. A.L. Williams was attacked, shut down in some states, sued, ridiculed by the “traditional” agencies, and lied about. It didn’t, however, stop them from becoming the number one seller of their product! It also has happened in the telecommunications industry in the 90’s with Excel. They became the fourth largest. Seems to me, no matter how much you resist what the networking business model is in the travel industry, it’s not going away. It’s only getting bigger and it will have some adjustments as it does.
Again, as an RTA, I DO CARE ABOUT TRAVEL! I may not book it exactly the same way you do all the time but I do care. Just like you loath the ones that give the TTA a bad name, I too loath the networkers that give the networking a bad name.
We feel we have a good product and as time goes on we will only get better!
Now, fire away TTA’s!
You know absolutely nothing about how we work. First of all, we don't work the traditional way at all. If you spent any time with a travel agent you would know that.
ReplyDelete"We earn money off the efforts of other’s efforts."
That's the same thing as being a pimp is it not?
"There are companies now that you can sign up with that will send you their product for free in hopes that you will talk about it with your friends."
Really? Name one.
"As far as rebating the commissions to ourselves, yes. I mean, what do you do with your commissions you book travel for yourself?"
We don't get commission on travel we book for ourselves. Whoever said we did is just plain wrong.
Well Fireman, that was interesting but nothing new. You use the same poor analagies and phrases....ie 80% of travel is booked on the internet. Well sure it is. Just about 100% of my bookings are via the internet because my GDS is internet based. Your clients, like some of mine, will book away from you if the price is less. They will not be loyal to a website. Just ask Expedia. You say you sell travel, good. So do I but I also own the problems and personally look after my clients. They expect me to.
ReplyDeleteYour clients are YTBs. Not yours. As Seriously said you let HQ or the vendors deal with mistakes or problems.
Let me say this. I have taken an EMT course or two because I find it interesting. You have too. My wife is having a heart attack...should I work on her, or stand aside and let you do it?
So, to you, recruiting is optimum and without it you would not be an RTA. Selling travel is a hobby for you. You don't want to make a living with it. 85% fail at it and many cause problems for their customers because of that. Everything you said you wanted is available to you via professional methods but I guess it's just not worth the time to get your head out of the sand and look around.
In conclusion, I really am beginning to wonder when you have the time to save lives and sell travel with all the blogs etc. Maybe you are not really a fire medic at all, but a happy recruiter for YTB.I'm sorry that Traverus is causing you such pain.
Your friend,
Eddie
So let me get this straight…
ReplyDeleteYou have some mystery Host Agency that we can sign up for free and earn 80% commission while the Host keeps 20%.
Perfectly alright by all…am I right?
Firemedic can sign up with Nexion and keep 100% of the commission for $199 and $179 per month, and Firemedic can then do the same as this Mystery Host, by building a team for an additional $359 to $499 per month and pay these Agents 80%, keeping 20% for himself.
That’s alright by all of you, because the Mystery Host and Nexion are “legitimate hosts”.
But if Firemedic decides to do the same thing with YTB paying 60% commission to his agents and keeping 10% for himself for a price of $50 a month that makes him a “pimp”?
Okay....I'll bite. Only because I need a good laugh.
[b]Why?[/b]
If Firemedic wants to be an IC with other IC's working for/with him, why not?
ReplyDeleteIt's not an unheard of concept. The key is to find people who actually want to sell. I have
ICs - they keep 100% if they book independent of me and 80% if they don't. I charge 40.00 a month for the GDS and back office. Firemedic could do this as well.
With YTB, Firemedics downline are not 'his' agents. They are independent business owners with their own agendas. If they do nothing - like 85% of them - he get's nothing. and most, as you know, do nothing. They pay YTB more than they'll ever pay Fireman.
Is that funny enough for you?
"Well Fireman, that was interesting but nothing new. You use the same poor analagies and phrases....ie 80% of travel is booked on the internet. Well sure it is. Just about 100% of my bookings are via the internet because my GDS is internet based. Your clients, like some of mine, will book away from you if the price is less. They will not be loyal to a website. Just ask Expedia. You say you sell travel, good. So do I but I also own the problems and personally look after my clients. They expect me to.
ReplyDeleteYour clients are YTBs. Not yours. As Seriously said you let HQ or the vendors deal with mistakes or problems. "
Eddie, eddie, eddie. Just like I said in the very beginning of my post, you won't get it. I won't try explaining it again because I don't know how to explain to someone how chocolate tastes that has never had chocolate. You think like an employee, we are thinking like a business owner that leverages himself. Again, I am not expecting you to get it at this moment.
As far as customers not being loyal to us and will book if they find it cheaper.....SO WILL I. If I find it cheaper on another site I too will buy it then. Thing is, I have booked a lot lately and my site has always been as cheap or cheaper. I also tell my customers that if they find it cheaper somewhere else then by all means buy it, but to just always check my site first. Simple enough. As far as letting YTB do the work for me if there is a problem.....great! As far as the 80% of travel on the net...that's 80% that's not booked by a TTA.
Eddie, as far as attcking me as a paramedic (that's not an EMT) that's the typical response on here of the majority of the TTA's. They attack the person instead of the issue and it shows a character.
"Let me say this. I have taken an EMT course or two because I find it interesting. You have too. My wife is having a heart attack...should I work on her, or stand aside and let you do it?"
Terrible analogy Eddie. If you took a coarse or "two" you would know. Usually that means you didn't pass it the first time and you get three tries the first time. But I will help you out here...
I would say you might view RTA's as EMT's (Basic) and TTA's (advanced with a degree). Thing is, most of EMS (Emergency Medical Services) is BASIC SKILLS...meaning it rarely needs to be a paramedic to take care of the majority of the problems. The heart attack your wife is having, would probably be better off with an EMT. It has been shown that survival rates are better with Basic skills because paramedics tend to spend too much time with the details. We were taught to give medications, critically think, start IV's and all that other stuff, all the while wasting valuable time. Now I am not saying that TTA' aren't needed. I am just saying, the majority of the travel doesn't need them. If you disagree then take it up with Expedia.
As far as what you think about me being a firefighter paramedic....I don't care. Thing is, just like I have told Ainsworth, if I ran your emergency call and I knew who you were, I would never treat you any different than any other patient. You will treated very well and you would never know what my part time income is. Again, typical response from the TTA's if you can't attack the idea, attack the person.
Oh, and as far as the "pimp" analogy...ridiculous. That would make anyone that has ever had a job as being "pimped" for the owner. Simply ridiculous. If you started your own lawn mowing business and hire an employee wouldn't you expect to make money off his efforts? If not you are losing money and that just doesn't make sense. But let's say that you are making money off your employee (and I AM NOT SAYING MY TEAM ARE MY EMPLOYEES) then does that make you a "pimp"? Not really looking for an answer from you eddie.
ReplyDeleteA house built on a faulty foundation will surely fall...
ReplyDelete"Problem is, the TTA is not the way 80% of the travel is being done now. It’s being done over the internet. It’s not going to the internet, it’s already there!"
Like it or not - this is the main faulty premise that YTB has fed you folks. Please show me where this statistic is cited - one that does NOT include the bookings done via a TTA using an internet connection.
“If they do nothing - like 85% of them - he get's nothing.”
ReplyDeleteEddie, Steve has asked us not to discuss the recruiting aspect of the company today. I realize it’s some sort of fetish, but he’s the one that asked not us.
“I charge 40.00 a month for the GDS and back office.”
Why aren’t you a pimp Eddie?
Littel Bird;
Nobody but you and Eddie have quoted this 80% myth. Speaking of myths...
Anybody read Doug's blog today?
If you did, you wouldn't be talking that type of smack. ;-P
Okay, Eddie I was wrong. It is 70% according the the PhousWright article that Doug referenced. Doesn't look good for the traditional agencies according to that article but I bet Coach paid for that article. Just kidding.
ReplyDeleteAT said ""There are companies now that you can sign up with that will send you their product for free in hopes that you will talk about it with your friends."
ReplyDelete"Really? Name one"
I originally heard a company talking about it on Fox News about a month ago but it you will Google "free products word of mouth marketing" you will find several. There is also an NPR article about it.
Firemedic said, "See, yes I could choose to get a host agency to sell travel and earn money with the bookings that I create. With that scenario I get to do all the work myself. I depend on my efforts to do all the work and as long as I do all the work I get paid. Problem is just that, I have to do all the work or I don’t get paid. If I can’t sell all the travel myself, I don’t sell travel."
ReplyDeleteThere is no reason why you couldn't recruit other ICs to work with you for a split of your commissions. Eventually, you'll be doing enough volume that you could wean yourself from the host and be a host agency for yourself. That sounds exactly like what you describe and want. The ability for others to do the work and you get part of their profits. Your sub-agents could do that too if that were part of your agreement with them.
The difference here is that because the websites are free and there are no monthy or yearly sign-up fees, there are no recruiting bonuses ala the REP positions. It would all be based on selling travel. Also, since your commission split is 80/20 instead of 60/40, your profits from selling travel are 33.3% higher with no monthly expense for your website.
Note that the hypothetical company I describe allows you to work as a traditional TA as well as having the online presence that you so desire. Shoot, most TTAs have a website presence already anyway.
The hypothetical I have cited is not just hypothetical. There are several host agencies that offer exactly what I have described.
So, other than the recruitment bonuses, why wouldn't you want to increase your commissions by 33.3% and eliminate your monthly fee?
Now, even though I asked not to consider the recruitment side, it has already been brought up, so let me ask the following:
How do you market the YTB RTA position purely based on the travel sales aspects? How do you convince someone to pay almost $450 plus $50 per month for something they could get for free, as well as get only a 60/40 split instead of 80/20? Please tell me what your pitch is. No mention of the marketing side in this pitch please, as the REPs are a separate company. We wouldn't want to give AG Brown any more ammunition now, would we?
It is my opinion that the only reasons people buy into MLM travel are:
1) They don't know that better deals for being a travel agent are available elsewhere
2) They are drawn to the large dollar figures that shown to them for bonuses paid to them for building teams
3) They are lured by the false promises of free and/or discounted travel.
Therefore it is my contention that anyone selling the YTB RTA positions is not an honest salesperson. If they were, they wouldn't be selling such an inferior product. Of course, there are those that will say that "honest salesperson" is an oxymoron anyway.
Steve if we wanted to do business the way you do it, well, we would be doing it that way. It's not the trend though. As for the rest of your questions, already been answered.
ReplyDeleteThe TTA's on here seem to have a fixed pie sort of thinking, meaning there is only so much pie and not enough to go around. Not only that, the pie needs to be sold the TTA way and no other way is "honest" or good for the industry. Whatever so-called down turn in the industry, the TTA's here want to think it's the networking companies fault. The downturn of the TTA was happening long before YTB came along.
As far as the "false promises" go, there have been several posts on there with ads to being a TTA and they look very similar to what some networkers post.
"Therefore it is my contention that anyone selling the YTB RTA positions is not an honest salesperson. If they were, they wouldn't be selling such an inferior product. Of course, there are those that will say that "honest salesperson" is an oxymoron anyway." We are sorry you feel that way. That is your opinion and there are many that feel just the opposite. There are many people that think that people that shop at Wal-Mart with be the cause of the end of the world markets too.
We read about you guys attacking our leaders and calling them names. We see people writing and expressing extremely viscious hatred. What we don't see is our leaders doing the same to you.
Your model is on the downturn. Ours is not and it's reflected in our numbers over last year, and the years before. You don't have to like it, but they are just the same.
Okay, I have had my daily dose of negative.
I have to say something here...I've been reading this blog...I am currently with TraVerus, and the reason I joined initially was b/c of residual income, and the fact that my family and I love to travel (we are in the military, so we have been fortunate enough to visit places that most folks will NEVER see).
ReplyDeleteResiduals are great and anyone trying to say they joined any travel MLM just for the travel is LYING. Im sorry but they are attracted to the residuals.
Me personally, after booking travel and building a team, I no longer recruit. My efforts have been on travel...and I have been keeping a third eye out for host agency opportunities, but at the same time am looking at what TraVerus offers as far as travel commissions (we are paid 75% and then up to 90% after we reach a certain volume)
That said, I have the utmost respect for TTAs, and have voiced that in other forums etc...and what has compelled me to speak is that Im just tired of hearing YTB folks say(and yes I used to be with YTB):
TTAs are threatened by us.
We are taking over.
Times are changing the internet is the only way so the TTAs need to get over it
(each YTBer when you ask them directly will have the exact same response or similar, which leads me to believe that they are all told this stuff.)
XYZ percentage is not booked by TTAs anymore
And showing no respect for the travel industry.
(who cares about IATAN etc...)
It's annoying how obnoxious and cavalier acting - they present themselves that way, and they keep MISSING what you guys are talking about. They are so gung ho that YTB is taking over the planet they are beyond rational.
Yes travel is booked online, but for some reason they are not grasping that the TTAs are part of that equation. I think they are fed a bunch of hype and false information about what a TTA does and think you guys don't use the internet at all?
Secondly the internet has been around forever. YTB is NOT the one who brought internet travel to the forefront like they claim....they are NOT even the first travel MLM if they did their research.
As a matter of fact: 'While online travel continues to grow, travel agents are the dominant force in travel distribution, especially in the complex-high-grossing products (ie cruises, group travel, vacations). A recent study conducted by the Cruise Line Industry, concluded that 90% of the 10 million people who went on a cruise last year booked through a travel agent. EVERYDAY DOZENS OF TRADITIONAL TRAVEL AGENCIES ARE CLOSING THEIR STOREFRONT OPERATIONS IN AN EFFORT TO REDUCE COSTS WICH IN TURN IS FUELING THE GROWTH OF THE HOME-BASED segment.'
Now to make that clear, it's not saying the end of TTAs, it's saying more TTAs and others are working out of their own offices now, not necessarily in store front, but the traditional methods are still in play.
YTB people need to embrace the fact that they can LEARN something from a TTA instead of going against them. Their mouths are what gets them in trouble, and an increasing amount of folks are starting to think YTB is like a cult.
It's okay to be proud of your company and excited etc...it's another to act completely ignorant of what's going on outside the YTB bubble.
Sorry forgot to add that this is what I've observed. I have never seen any other MLM or business (except maybe Amway) with people that have a cult-like mentality, or remain openminded or quick to attack when facts are presented - excited about their company - but in essence say others are inferior if they are not a part of YTB.
ReplyDeleteTherefore it is my contention that anyone selling the YTB RTA positions is not an honest salesperson. If they were, they wouldn't be selling such an inferior product. Of course, there are those that will say that "honest salesperson" is an oxymoron anyway.
ReplyDeleteSteve;
We sell this package the same way Magic Johnson Travel did for $4999
The same way Cruise One does for $9800
The same with Cruise Planners for $9995
The same way Travel Planners Int. does for $499
The same way American Vacations Center does for $10,000
Maybe the AG should look into these Agencies as well based on your logic.
It's my contention that the Cruise Only Agencies are inferior. I can only sell Cruises.
But people buy into this all the time.
Yea Really and look what happened to Magic Johnson Travel----Gone, Kaput. Your argument makes no sense.
ReplyDeleteLakeisha-Great post. You are correct YTB is spoon fed and believe all the garbage. They can't think for themselves. Those that do and can get out.
Really -
ReplyDelete1) Magic Johnson's company is gone. They couldn't get people to buy into that.
2) With CruiseOne and CruisePlanners your money buys into a franchise with territory rights, and a nationwide advertising campaign. Does YTB provide either of those? Nope!
3) I'm not familiar with any $10K from AVC, as you can become one of their agents for far less.
4) TPI has plans for $199 plus a monthly fee starting at $19.95 and offering a 70% split as well as allowing sub-agents (something Firemedic desperately wants). Even the 100% plan from TPI doesn't cost $499 to sign-up, so I don't know where you got your mis-information on that one.
Firemedic - Take a look at TPI's PRO70 or higher percentage plans. They look like everything you want. A better split than YTB. A lower monthly cost. The ability to have sub-agents. Free online consumer websites. Basically everything you claim you need, with better benefits than YTB, except no recruiting bonuses like you get with YTB.
There are other hosts that I think are better than TPI, but this should be easier to sell to your downline, er, I mean sub-agents. See http://www.myhosttravelagency.com/hostingplans.htm for details on their plans.
Firemedic said, "Steve if we wanted to do business the way you do it, well, we would be doing it that way. It's not the trend though. As for the rest of your questions, already been answered."
ReplyDeleteI respectfully disagree that the rest of the questions have been answered. What I have asked, is how do you sell someone on being an RTA to sell travel only, without speaking at all to the REP opportunity? There are so many better ways to have an online website to sell travel than YTB, I don't see how you can do it without the lure of the REP bonuses.
Firemedic said, "As far as the "false promises" go, there have been several posts on there with ads to being a TTA and they look very similar to what some networkers post."
You'll note that I have spoken out about those too. I even mentioned in an earlier post about Apple Vacations talking about their affiliate website as allowing you to "make money while you sleep". I cringed when I heard that and talked to the reps from Apple after the seminar about that. To me that is the same as what I hear from the MLM companies.
Firemedic said, "We read about you guys attacking our leaders and calling them names. We see people writing and expressing extremely vicious hatred. What we don't see is our leaders doing the same to you."
There are some TTAs that have done this. I don't think that is right either. I have tried very hard to keep this debate focused on facts, not on name-calling. I appreciate the fact that you did not specifically say that I do that.
Firemedic said, "Your model is on the downturn. Ours is not and it's reflected in our numbers over last year, and the years before. You don't have to like it, but they are just the same."
Actually, most reports show that our model is back on the upswing. The YTB SEC filings show that YTB is again losing money and the number of RTAs is dropping. I suspect we'll see that the amount of travel sales is dropping as well. You don't have to like that either, but the SEC filings are part of the public record.
The same way American Vacations Center does for $10,000
ReplyDeleteWhere did this lunacy come from?
I don't remember the exact amount but I think experienced agents can join AVC for around $495 (renewal is less than $100 per year). And the monthly fee is waived if your monthly gross commission (before split) is $1,000. Experienced agents shouldn't have a problem with bringing in $1,000 a month in gross commission (that's $6,300 in gross sales assuming a 16% commission).