Now this year, enter Holton Buggs. He was made director in about a month and was touted as the fastest rising star in YTB. Holton even had a huge part in the convention last month teaching everyone how he is so successful in the MLM world. Well apparently old Coach got what he needed and has tossed Holton to the curb as well. Boy this sounds like an MO of rYTB. Pull in the heavy recruiters and then keep the recruits and toss out the recruiters before you need to pay them the big bucks.
Here is my email to Holton:
Holton--
I am impressed with your fast success in YTB. I have been looking into YTB for a while and just yesterday heard that you had left. If that is true, I may need to reevaluate.
Thanks
John
And here is his somewhat cryptic reply:
Yes,I did not resign. I am no longer working that business.Holton
Let's hear the "rest of the story".
ReplyDeleteCoach did not throw him to the curb.
Holton decided he wanted to market another MLM in addition to YTB.
That is against a strict YTB policy.
It has to do with the monthly Director profit-sharing pay and company-paid health and life insurance.
All Director signs a contract stating that they will not represent any other MLM company.
Straight forward. No hidden clauses.
Any Director also gets the opportunity to drop the other MLM and stay with YTB.
Obviously he did not want to do that and was rightly terminated.
"Well apparently old Coach got what he needed and has tossed Holton to the curb as well."
No, John.
Holton Buggs tossed himself to the curb.
Can't speak to the Director agreement but the standard agreement says you cannot operate with another TRAVEL MLM.
ReplyDeleteThe tone of his email (as best can be determined) does not indicate that it was a simple contract clause issue. But hey, I am glad you believe.
"But hey, I am glad you believe."
ReplyDeleteNo, John.
Not "believe".
I KNOW.
I'm sure he would love to represent another MLM and get YTB's profit-sharing and health/life benefits.
So would the guy caught in an affair.
He would love to continue with his woman on the side and still have the benefits of marriage.
But when you are caught, things usually come to an end quite quickly.
Holton had every opportunity to drop the other.
But he chose not to.
OK Mix, I am glad you believe.
ReplyDeleteIt's more than "believe".
ReplyDeleteI LOVE to set the record straight with your continual inaccuracies regarding YTB.
It's like NEWSBUSTERS keeping an eye on MSNBC.
Not hard to do with you.
I am glad you believe.
ReplyDeleteI will check in on those beliefs in a week or so if that is OK with you.
You have to ask yourself Mix, if Holton Boggs was given a choice to drop his other MLM, why didn't he? He must have seen more value in the other, than with YTB. My guess is that Holton isn't affected by the kool-aid. He has built up an immunity to the brain washing of MLM's and can think for himself. Maybe he was working two mlms, but according to MIX he would have been given a choice. I think he chose to abandon ship!
ReplyDeleteI heard that Holton had left last week. No sense in going down with the ship!
ReplyDeleteWell, Mix, if you KNOW, here is an opportunity for you to PROVE it. We have all seen a copy of the Director Agreement that states that you can't market another travel mlm, show us the one that says you can't market ANY other mlm. You can say anything, which you always do, but prove it. You never prove anything that you say. Either put up, or shut up. For that matter....to any member of ytb, put up, or shut up. Show us this document, if it exists. It's as easy as that.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.ytb.com/downloads/YTB_comp_plan.pdf
ReplyDeleteRight on the front page of ANY rep site. It is for everyone to see...MIX is correct. No directo may particiapte in ANY direct marketing company.
Wow, so it does exist. I'm actually impressed. But, since ytb has this exclusivity clause, doesn't this then make the director an employee of ytb, and ytb responsible for any and all withholdings from the directors earnings and all the other legalities of having employees?
ReplyDeleteAinsworth, How do you figure that. If you and I entered into a contractual agreement of some kind that wouldn't necessarily make you an employee of mine or vice versa. It just means that we have an agreement.
ReplyDeleteJosh--he may be right. There is a very fin e line between an IC (1099) and an employee(w-2 with social security, workers comp, etc). There is a litmus test and one of the criteria is that you cannot control who or how the IC works. By restricting their ability to work, you are making them an employee. Another one is offering them "perks" of employees. Giving them health insurance raises a flag. I know in my agencies, we need to charge for materials used (postage, envelopes, etc) and also rent on desk space and so forth which proves the person is in deed independent and not an employee.
ReplyDeleteIf found to be employees, YTB would have a HUGE tax bill. They woudl need to pay into Social Security, WOrkers Comp, State tax, etc.
If I understand it correctly, once one becomes a director they are, in part, and employee. This is when the group paid insurance, same as the corporate emplyees, is in effect. If the director has dependants added to the inusurance, that extra amount is taken from their monthly profit sharing amount. They are also held to the same policies and procedures as the corporate employees. They have added responsibilities also like teaching. Taxes are also taken from those same checks. Taxes owed on the rest of the income earned is the responsibility of the Rep.
ReplyDeleteOk so the way that this sounds is you can not do anything with another MLM, but if you own a private company you can sell over priced product to YTB? That sounds fair and right.
ReplyDeleteAinsworth said ...."You can say anything, which you always do, but prove it. You never prove anything that you say. Either put up, or shut up. For that matter....to any member of ytb, put up, or shut up. Show us this document, if it exists. It's as easy as that."
ReplyDeleteIt was that easy but it was not easy for Ainsworth.
From reading this blog I have seen several situations that the YTBr's proved their case but Ainsworth uses words like "always" and "never". He was proven wrong and all he has to say is "WOW". But of course then comes the yeah "but". Can't just eat his crow and be a man about it and admit his beliefs may be flawed just like the YTB'rs may be flawed.
Seriously.... said...
ReplyDeleteAinsworth said ...."You can say anything, which you always do, but prove it. You never prove anything that you say. Either put up, or shut up. For that matter....to any member of ytb, put up, or shut up. Show us this document, if it exists. It's as easy as that."
It was that easy but it was not easy for Ainsworth.
From reading this blog I have seen several situations that the YTBr's proved their case but Ainsworth uses words like "always" and "never". He was proven wrong and all he has to say is "WOW". But of course then comes the yeah "but". Can't just eat his crow and be a man about it and admit his beliefs may be flawed just like the YTB'rs may be flawed.
Seriously, I admited that I was wrong, and that I was impressed. What more do you want? One thing out of how many has finally been proven? There is not crow to be eaten at this point, and when only one out of dozens of beliefs proven wrong is proven flawed, it proves nothing. Sorry, my beliefs aren't flawed, but, to quote your above statement "the YTB'rs may be flawed". (Oh, and I realize the above statement by Serious was a typo, but you put it out there, and since statements by ytber's have a way of being changed, I have made a screen print of what Serious posted, so Serious can't come back and say that s/he never stated that ytbers may be flawed.)
It wasn't a typo Ainsworth. I am suggesting that both are wrong in some ways. I believe that the anti folks are wrong in the way they imply wrongdoings and character assasinations on people that, as far as I can tell, don't actually know. The YTB'rs do the same sometimes when they strike back at people on this board. Personally I think either is right.
ReplyDeleteYou now say "One thing out of how many has finally been proven? There is not crow to be eaten at this point, and when only one out of dozens of beliefs proven wrong is proven flawed, it proves nothing." Well here is your chance to put up or shut up. Show the dozens compared to the one thing. My intuition is that you can't do it. Just like saying words like "always" and "never". Words that can rarely be substantiated. You stated that your beliefs are not flawed however you were just proven to be flawed. Therefore the terms "always" and "never" cannot work for you anymore in any argument you pose that bank on these words. It was just proven wrong but will you still claim otherwise? If that is the case then you are as self deceived as you claim the YTB folks as being.
As far as making a screenprint Ainsworth...big deal. I am not naive enough to think that both sides of an argument don't have some sort of flaw in a belief system. Yes, I believe of the the belief systems of some of the YTB folks are flawed. I see the same on the anti side. I do however see a diproportionate amount of attacks coming from the anti group. Most of which seem implied or insinuated so as to not quite classify as legal slander or libel. Seems hypocritical to me since the anti crowd accuses YTB of pushing the limit.
I am just curious to know how many posters on this board have actually met this guy John personally? And if they have, how would they describe him?
If I had to guess, I have probably met 6 to 10 of the people that regularly comment here.
ReplyDeleteI would like to know what they think of you and why?
ReplyDeleteGlad your obsessed with it...I really don't care.
ReplyDeleteROTLMAO!
ReplyDeleteBig deal there is a statement you can't be in another MLM. Problem is none of your reps can read.
Your reps have loose lips when they drink at trade shows. LOL! Let's see one told me she was into Mary Kay, another one told me she was into Mona Vie and on and on.
Mixie and Josh and Coach have NO control, ZERO, NADA, over your Reps/RTA's. Loose lips. They don't give a crap and excuse my French about YTB. It's all about the money. They ain't making enough with YTB they will get another income stream. Plain and simple. And, the MLM crowd tends to stick with MLM's because they think it works. What's Coach going to do? Go after every Betty Lou, Spencer, Tom or Johnny? Go after all those reps who ignore the policy? Coach has BIGGER FISH to fry with the CA AG suit.
You really are twits.
Not obsessed about it. I don't know you and I don't think you are a bad guy.
ReplyDeleteAs far as I can tell you can be in other MLM's, except for travel, until you become a director. At that point I believe you cannot be actively building another MLM business. I could be wrong about that but that's how I read it.
ReplyDeleteI notice Miss Kitty rarely has commented without calling people names but at least she gets to feel better about herself.
I personally haven't met John..but actually look forward to it in October (if I make it to the trade show). I personally think he is a very nice man, passionate about his industry, and actually has the cojones to speak his mind. Its a myth (IMO) that travel agents are catty and out to steal each others clientele. From what I've seen on the forums and in real life, over 18 years is that we all seem to get along quite nicely, until someone comes along and sets a bad name for those in the business.
ReplyDeleteSeriously another pseudonym for Regina/Gail/Denyse. You gals sure have a lot of time on your hands to have so many names and so many emails. Guess the biz is slow. And in case you don't know what pseudonym is here is a the definition from a dictionary.
ReplyDeletepseu·do·nym
–noun
a fictitious name used by an author to conceal his or her identity; pen name.
As to my calling you a twit here is that definition. If the shoe fits honey....And, it fits just like the glass slipper.
–noun Informal.
an insignificant or bothersome person.
Lisa, I had never actually heard that agents were catty and out to steel other people's clients. Even though you have not met John, you think he's a very nice man. And that is because he's passionate about the same thing as you? If he wasn't would you feel the same? As long as someone is not giving you a bad name then you believe they are nice? I am not arguing with you about him because I don't know him.
ReplyDeleteMiss Kitty...are you a travel agent?
ReplyDeleteOh and is Miss Kitty a pseudonym? Meaning a fictitious name used by an author to conceal his or her identity; pen name. You seem to be an unhappy person.
ReplyDeleteSeriously the only thing I am unhappy about is the way you and your cohorts deflect, deflect, deflect AND your stupidity for falling for a scam like YTB.
ReplyDeleteYou claim to be so holy that's a joke. You are the biggest hypocrite of them all. And, the fact that you defend and keep sending money to a known con man makes you a scum bag.
Are you a professional travel agent Miss Kitty?
ReplyDeleteYou make many assumptions. I send money to no one. Perhaps responses like this is the biggest reason for you feeling like someone is giving you a bad name. Looks like you are doing a fine job yourself, especially if you treat your customers this way.
"Seriously the only thing I am unhappy about is the way you and your cohorts deflect, deflect, deflect AND your stupidity for falling for a scam like YTB."
I doubt this is the only thing as I am sure other readers would agree. Seems to make you even more mad that someone can keep their cool even though you insult them. Not sure if your employer has an employee assistance program but you should look into it.
Seriously
ReplyDeleteMy thoughts on John personally are my own. I think hes a very nice guy. I've not personally met him, but speaking to him on various forums (not always about MLMs). Do I think hes nice because we agree on the similar things..no..that has nothing to do with it. I respect him for having a voice and saying his peace. I do the same. Do I think people who do not think the same as me are nice..of course. I do not always agree with people on everything, doesn't mean they are not friends or nice people.
Do I think all YTBers are bad people. I've NEVER ONCE said that. I've said countless times that if they changed a few things, they'd be a great host. I actually talk to people that are in YTB and other MLM's. Do I agree with how they work their business..no. Do I get annoyed when they blatently disregard rules...hell yes.
My thought is this. You cannot judge someone solely on their POV. Everyone cannot agree on everything. But everyone is entitled to their opinions. I am actually a very nice person in real life. But I've been called a bitch on this forum because of my POV. Does it bother me..not a bit. :)
Travel Lisa, you seem very nice too. You seem like someone I would get along with too. What I see in the way you write is kindness, not straight up sarcasm and attacking like say Kitty. That shows that you have character. Now I say this because so far I have only read back about a few weeks worth of blogs but my guess is that you are sincere.
ReplyDeleteI would still like to hear what the others think of John. Those that have met him personally.
Oh Boo-Hoo Seriously. I am a big meanie. You come on here out of no where and questions John's credentials and his reputation to the point of being a whiny PITA about it.
ReplyDeleteThen you have the nerve to say this tidbit:
"Not sure if your employer has an employee assistance program but you should look into it."
You know NOTHING about me! So, stop making assumptions. Did you ever think you were being perhaps teased? baited?
As to John do your homework. He is a well respected person, columnist and travel agent. But then again if you did your homework in the 1st place would you be with a company that is involved in the largest MLM suit in the USA? Involved in class action lawsuits? Is involved in a federal suit? Has an unsatisfactory record with the BBB? AND, has been proven by their own SEC filings that only a small percent make any money on travel? Involved in illicit recruiting techniques. Read the CA AG suit in it's entirety. I assure you it is an eye opener.
But no you deflect on John's character and credibility. IMO, you stay because you are too scared to leave, you think YTB will miraculously make you rich or you can't admit you made a mistake.
You people don't get it even though it's right in front of your eyes in black and white.
I have no desire to attack John's credibility. That, my dear, is your assumptions. Do you base John's credibility on what is written or have you met him personally? Maybe Both?
ReplyDeleteYes, I know about the law suits. Especially the class action one. The one in which one of the people that filed it was never even an RTA. "I joined for free and lost millions".
Miss Kitty, you are a sad individual. You say very hypocritical things. You have to nerve to say that I know nothing about you yet the only thing you know about YTB is what you have READ. I see you call people names (a testament to your character) and slander Lloyd Tomer. From meeting him, I feel he would never talk about you the way you do about him (a testament to his character).
Last I checked, law suits mean nothing until they are finalized and one is proven guilty.
Since it seems so important to you to find someone who has met John - yes I have not only interacted with him on various professional forums over the years, I have indeed met him. He is a very kind person willng to give of his advise and his time, and as you well know he is very passionate about maintaining the integrity of the travel profession.
ReplyDeleteAnything else?
Okay. If I were to tell you that John was a con man and a crook, based on what I have heard or read about him would it be fair to say that I don't KNOW him like you do. Would it be fair to say that since you have met him personally that is even more evidence to his credibility in your eyes? I don't know him personally. I mean, if I were to talk about past failures, (we all have them) what others say about him, and what law suits he has been involved in, would that matter to you? Especially since you call him a friend?
ReplyDeleteGod bless you Seriously but you are wasting your time. They will only try to find a way to shame you into submission. I do find the statement about "maintaining integrity" a bit ironic though. Professionals...also an ironic statement. Yes, Miss Kitty claims to be a "travel professional". I don't know John either but I think he missed his calling as a tabloid writer. Anyway...good luck here.
ReplyDeleteSeriously--one point on the class action suit and the Reps (not RTAs) that is rarely mentioned. Yes, it is free to get in, but it is not without cost. It is almost as if the "admission" is a loss leader (as they say in retail circuits). Get them in for cheap and then get the rest of the money. On another forum, was talking to a person who is "investigating" YTB and has spent nearly $3K in attendance at shows alone. So, when a free Rep comes in, there is cost--bus cards, DVDs, Magazines, attendance at local shows ($10 a pop), attendance at the national and regional shows and Red Carpet Day, etc. The schpiel is that you will make money if you do all these things (if you BUY and distribute these magazines you will earn $6K)yet we know the typiocla person does not. So yes to get in is free to be in has a very real cost.
ReplyDeleteFiremedic--good to see you back. Do you have the information? Or are you just here to grace us with your presence?
So all those things I read by respected reporters and in the CA AG suit are wrong? Is that what you are telling me Seriously? Sure sounds like it. I READ the CA AG suit. And, to think you people still defend YTB after all the information presented in that suit is beyond pathetic.
ReplyDeleteHere are some links for you to read. Scroll down and open the link on the lawsuit.
http://www.ytbexposed.com/
I am a sad individual. I don't give a rats patooie what you think Seriously nor do I care. You are blinded by the truth and defend a company with a bad reputation. What does that make you?
As to the slander of Coach bring it on. Can't slander someone when it is the truth.
Seriously - I have met John. I had dinner and a beer with him and then we attended a Founder's Day Tour meeting in Maryland. I found him to be an honest enough guy who happens to have a belief that one does not become a travel agent simply by renting a website. I think he believes like I do, that most MLM organizations are set up for the people at the top to make all the money and that they tend to prey on the less fortunate with dreams of get rich quick.
ReplyDeleteSteve - This is my point. I have met Coach. And because I have met Coach in the same ways you have met John (except for the beer) I know he is not the man this forum makes him out to be. It is plain and simply bearing false witness. I have seen some of you challenged to meet the man personally yourselves yet you won't. I feel that you won't because having to stand face to face with someone of that class of character would convict you. Therefore if you remain where you are and slander from afar you get to remain "right" in your own eyes. Problem is it will come back around to you in the end and you will be wondering "why did this happen to me? I am a nice guy/gal". Forgetting what you have done to others. I don't think everyone here is bad but they just do some bad things to who are good people.
ReplyDeleteBy the way Steve - what qualifies you to be "honest enough"? Your ignorance of MLM is just that, yours. Just like my ignorance of auto-mechanics is mine. It would be easy for me to develop an opinion of it it because I don't know about it. It would even be easier to put it down in order to feel more justified about my opinion of it. Just like you have with MLM.
Miss Kitty - I personally feel sad for you. I will definitely remember you in my prayers. I don't expect you to feel different about me though and that is ok.
Hey John, Doug is not having a hard time at all finding positive stuff at all.
ReplyDeleteI am sure he won't. But I bet for each one, there are 10 that go the other way.
ReplyDeleteI noticed today that he spoke about the church mortgage. He did not mention that the stock was restricted and that $1.86M gift is now not worth nearly that. That's not to say the gift stinks, but it does not pay off the mortgage.
Seriously - here is the difference. Yes I have met John and I believe him to be honest and sincere.
ReplyDeleteIF, however, stories going back decades about questionable "orchestrated character assasinations" (as you seem to think he is engaging in) began to surface - yes I would re-evaluate that assessment of him.
You see - I have no investment in the judgement - either monetary or pride.
You, however, have put your money, faith and dreams in the hands of someone you don't REALLY know. To justify it to yourself, your family and your friends - you HAVE to continue to believe, or face the shame of admitting a bad choice.
It's an old story really - pick up your childs copy of "The Emperors New Clothes" to see how it ends.
Little Bired - "You, however, have put your money, faith and dreams in the hands of someone you don't REALLY know. To justify it to yourself, your family and your friends - you HAVE to continue to believe, or face the shame of admitting a bad choice."
ReplyDeleteDo you REALLY know John? Has he aired all his dirty laundry to you? Has he told you all about his divorce, his lawsuits, his failures? Even if he has, does that make him bad? No. Same with Lloyd. All you know about him is what you read and that is sad. You too, must believe that Lloyd and YTB is as bad as you want to believe so that you TOO don't have to face the shame of admitting you are wrong about them. You now NEED YTB to fail and you NEED Lloyd to be written about negatively so that you can feel justified in your opinions. Ask yourself if YTB is found not guilty how will you feel? Disappointed perhaps? Becasue you needed them to be guilty? And if they were to be found guilty would you feel happy since you would then have, what you would feel is, proof that you were right? Being right is an addiction.
I just KNEW Seriously was going to bring up Coach. He/She met him and fell under the preachers 'spell'. I will admit he's very good at what he does....liberating peoples $$ from their pocket to his. That's okay tho - he's a self proclaimed man of God. Seriously, would you please send him some more $$. Finances at YTB HQ are getting bit tight.
ReplyDelete"Miss Kitty - I personally feel sad for you. I will definitely remember you in my prayers. I don't expect you to feel different about me though and that is ok."
ReplyDeletePlease don't pray for me you hypocritical witch. I know who you are and I have seen your postings on other forums. And, quit using religion. It's offensive. You are sick.
BTW-Are you trying to get a date with John or have him father your future children. Sure sounds like you are stalking him.
And what if it turns out to be the other way..that what's been said about Coach from everywhere (not just this blog) are true? How would you feel defending him then?
ReplyDeleteEveryone has dirty laundry somewhere in their past. But scamming is not one I'd likely forgive. But what does John have to do with any of this really, he is not our leader which everyone seems to think. He's a travel agent, with a voice, who has a blog. Just because we feel the same way on some issues, doesn't him make our "coach". The difference is that as many YTBers I've seen all proclaim Coach to basically be the almighty and take everything he says for fact, truth, word. Just because hes a man of god, does not make him believeable or credible. I've dealt with alot of televanglist thieves to prove that otherwise.
I am a minister...does that count for something? Does that change things now?
ReplyDeleteSeriously - you seem to be unable to separate the opinion of the man from the righteousness of the actions.
ReplyDeleteI really don't care about how messy John's divorce was. It has no relevance on whether I agree with his opinion on mlm's and travel.
I "get" that you think Lloyd Tomer is very nice. I think Lloyd really and truely believes what he is doing is right.
However - that doesn't MAKE it right.
Remember, the Emperor really believed he had a beautiful set of clothes that was going to revolutionize fashion all over the kingdom. He had a lot of agreement from the people that surrounded him and insulated him from reality, that didn't have the courage to raise a little red flag. Those people in turn got others to believe so that they weren't the only ones "out on a limb" believing. They had company. They could then say "Well YOU saw it too!"
I don't know if Lloyd Tomer is truely evil or just severely misguided. It doesn't matter. The fact of the matter - and the opinion of John and the rest of the TTA's is the title of this blog - "MLM's & Travel - A Bad Mix"
No matter who is running the show.
So many people think that Lloyd Tomer can do no wrong, just because he is a "pastor", or was one at one time. Well, men of the cloth are as fallable as anyone is. Remember that preacher in Louisiana who got caught with the hooker, Jimmy Swaggart? He got up before his flock, crying crocodile tears..."I have sinned before God"...boo hoo, and then a year or so later was caught at it again. Then there are all the Roman Catholic priest that have been caught with the little boys. Just because a man is "holy" does not make him perfect.
ReplyDeleteSeriously, John does not speak for us. He speaks for himself. We have read the information and the SEC filings on YTB and have made our own decisions. John does not own anyone.
ReplyDeleteTo bring John's personal life into this is plain WRONG. This is business and the travel industry. Has nothing to do with his private life.
I don't see anyone here attacking Coach's personal life, his marriage or his relationship with his kids and grandkids.
As for Tomer think he is only interested in the LOVE of money and making more. And that has a lot to do with his actions. I think this LOVE of money has replaced all common sense & good judgement. Including listening to his attorney who quit the board.
Again Bird, at this point you NEED him to be as bad as you think him to be. I noticed you said that you believed that Lloyd believes what he is doing and say is right. We feel the same about the people on this forum. Do you think there is a possibility that we may both be wrong? Maybe we both lack some information? Or is it you are definitely right and there is not if, ands, or buts about it?
ReplyDeleteYou also labeled Lloyd as either truly evil or misguided. You see nothing but those two qualities? That, dear, is sad if that is so.
Kitty, you don't know as much as you think you do. I will still pray for you! Hope don't treat your customers with this amount of bitterness being the "professional" you are.
I don't NEED the man to be proven to be bad - just the business model that he promotes that I feel is very bad not only for the true travel professionals but also for the general consumer.
ReplyDeleteThe internet already has so many people looking for a dime under every rock and being suspicious of any honestly offered piece of advice. So often our clients heads are swimming by the time they get to us and everyone and his brother telling him he is being ripped off if he doesn't spend hours on the internet.
Then the mlm's come in and all the poor guy hears is that he can travel free or at the very least earn 60% commisison on his own travel. I can't tell you how many people I have clarified those statements to - first off TTA's don't travel for free very often if at all (and then it is actually work) - and the recruiters always seem to forget to fully mention that they get 60% of the travel commission - not the whole tab. So Joe think he's gonna get $600 back on his $1000 vacation - and whoops - no it is only $60 (60% of the 10% commission).
In the meantime the poor guy feels more overwhelmed and confused then before he started - and he still doesn't get a REAL VACATION (which means traveling without doing work!)
We fight this fight not only for ourselves - but for our clients experience.
Seriously~I don't want a nut job like you praying for me. I told you I find bringing religion into it offensive. Knock it off! Which part of that don't you understand?
ReplyDeleteGod bless you and your family Kitty. I pray that you are blessed even in your bitterness. No matter what you think of me I still see greatness in you.
ReplyDeleteObviously, you still don't get it Seriously. I don't want your pity or prayers. I told you to knock it off.
ReplyDeleteBTW-I am not bitter I am pissed you are using religion to further your cause.
Knock it off or I will hunt you down.
Do you get it now?
Wow Miss Kitty! You sure seem angry about someone being nice to you. I am sure that Seriously will agree that you don't just turn off your faith when it's convenient. It's who you are, not what you do. I doubt Seriously is using religion to further his/her? cause. Seems like a caring person. Oh, and I don't think you have any choice whatsoever who prays for who. But, I have to admit that this blog would not be the same without your bitterness and sarcasm. I agree with Serious, God bless you anyway!
ReplyDeleteHey Seriously, Somebody asked if any of us had met John. I posted a note saying I actually had, and I had to be attacked with, "By the way Steve - what qualifies you to be "honest enough"? Your ignorance of MLM is just that, yours. Just like my ignorance of auto-mechanics is mine. It would be easy for me to develop an opinion of it it because I don't know about it. It would even be easier to put it down in order to feel more justified about my opinion of it. Just like you have with MLM."
ReplyDeletePlease go back to your Christian ways and learn how to debate civily. I'd have to go back and review all the posts I have ever made on this subject in this blog and other places to be sure, but I don't think I have ever attacked anyone personally. I have attacked ideas, statements of fact that weren't true, and stuff like that, but I have kept above the fray of personal attacks. That is simply not the way I work.
I am not ignorant of MLM, I just simply think that MLM is a scam. Any that are set up where the largest part of the money is based on recruiting more people rather than selling product are scams. The people at the top get the lion's share of the money, and the people at the bottom are left holding the bag. That is an educated opinion, not ignorance. The SEC filings and the company reports verify that. Now we do have something in common, an ignorance of auto mechanics.
I am confused about your question of what makes me honest enough. What I said, was I found John to be honest enough. That means that when I spoke with him, I did not feel that he was feeding me a line of BS. It was my judgement call. You are free to disagree with me if you wish, but you are not free to question my qualifications of judging character.
You are correct that I have not met Coach. However, I have gone and listened to Scott Tomer at a Founder's Day presentation. That is more than most TA's have done. What I heard were plenty of statements that were contrary to the SEC filings the company has made. Statements that were contrary to the printed information that was handed out that night. To me, that did not pass my "honest enough" test.
If you want to debate the actual issues, I am more than willing to do that. But if you want to just attack people personally, I have no use for that. You'll note that I do not post very often here, as can't be bothered with those things, so I cannot accept them from you. As far as I am concerned you owe me, but I dont expect to receive, an apology.
I am confused by what you feel is personal attacks. Was the use of the word "ignorance"?I did not mean it to mean stupid but rather "unaware" or "not knowing". I asked about what "honest enough" meant only because it seems that "honest enough" seems less than honest. I don't know John and I have never met him, therefore I assume what you are saying is true. I don't really dislike anyone because I believe there is value in everyone.
ReplyDeleteI really admire you Steve for your character on here. You seem to be one of the few.
"I am not ignorant of MLM, I just simply think that MLM is a scam. Any that are set up where the largest part of the money is based on recruiting more people rather than selling product are scams. The people at the top get the lion's share of the money, and the people at the bottom are left holding the bag. That is an educated opinion, not ignorance."
Steve how is this any different than the rest of the working world? The CEO's are at the top and make the lion's share. Is that fair? If someone buys stock when it is low and sells it when it's high, they make more than the person who bought it later, is that fair? Do you make more money than your boss? Is that fair? In networking you can, at any time one works hard, make more money than the one that joined before them. That seems fair to me. It also seems fair to me that the owners of a company make more money than the employees and the others.
"As far as I am concerned you owe me, but I dont expect to receive, an apology."
For what? I apologize if you feel I attacked you personally. I certainly did not mean it that way. I too would like to see just the issues debated but you seem to be the only one I have read about that is like that. Well, Travel Lisa seems nice about it mostly too.
"You are correct that I have not met Coach. However, I have gone and listened to Scott Tomer at a Founder's Day presentation. That is more than most TA's have done. What I heard were plenty of statements that were contrary to the SEC filings the company has made. Statements that were contrary to the printed information that was handed out that night. To me, that did not pass my "honest enough" test."
Can you elaborate on what Scott said that was contrary to the information? And as far as Coach is concerned, would you label him and personally attack him the same way as the rest have?
firemedic-You have NO room to talk to to bless any one. I have read your right wing rantings and attacks on other blogs. You are a hypocrite. And, I stand by my comment that you and YTB use religion to further your agenda. And, that my friend is a simply not right.
ReplyDeleteMiss Kitty, I could care less about what you think of me and what blogs you think I have been on. Unfortunately for you my self-esteem is not attached to what you think. I could also care less about what you think of YTB and my faith. Again, I don't just turn my faith off with a switch. Speaking of "agendas", you claim I use my faith. You like to use lies, slander, saracasm and plain immature personal attacks to further yours...how mature. I don't know you personally but I hope you don't treat everyone you meet that way.
ReplyDeleteSeriously- What I took as an attack was your very first line, "By the way Steve - what qualifies you to be "honest enough"?"
ReplyDeleteI took that to be that you were questioning my qualification to make that judgment. In hindsight it appears that your statement had a typo, and you were really asking me what I use as qualifiers to make the assessment of "honest enough". If so, I apologize too.
To answer the latter question, I don't know that I can give you anything quantifiable, other than gut feel. Also, "Honest Enough" was not meant to be a technical term, and I should have just said "honest".
As for the rest of the working world, if you read my blog (search for Maryland Malcontent), you'll see that I complain about CEO pay too. The average pay of CEO of the Fortune 500 has gone from about 40 times their average worker pay in 1980 to about 400 times their average worker pay in 2005 (last year statistics were available for the charts I saw). Why did that multiple need to jump by an order of magnitude? I understand that as the average worker salary goes up, the CEO salary goes up even more. That was reflected by the 40x multiple. It is only greed that has caused the multiple to go so much higher.
At the meeting Scott talked at length about how easy it was to make the big bucks. There was presentation after presentation of various awards to people (all for recruiting by the way). Yet, the figures distributed that night showed that less than 2% of all Reps or RTAs made anything close to the figures that Scott was touting. His talked sounded very much like a religious revival tent speech. It just did not pass my gut test.
As for Coach, I don't think I have ever made any personal attacks against him or the others. I do think they are making the bulk of the money, and that is reflected in the SEC filings. I think that he and the other insiders are at risk of being charged with securities fraud for insider trading, as they were selling stock during the 18 months they were talking with the CA AG, but failed to disclose that as required. Whether they are ultimately charged is up to the SEC.
You said, "If someone buys stock when it is low and sells it when it's high, they make more than the person who bought it later, is that fair? Do you make more money than your boss? Is that fair? In networking you can, at any time one works hard, make more money than the one that joined before them. That seems fair to me. It also seems fair to me that the owners of a company make more money than the employees and the others."
The difference here is that the bulk of the money is simply from recruiting. Whoever recruits the best makes the most money. If it was whoever sold the most travel made the most money, I would not have an issue with it. When it is recruiting, it is nothing more than a Ponzi scheme in disguise. I fail to understand your question about stocks. Yes, it is absolutely fair that someone that buys stock low and sells high makes more money than someone that buys high and sells low. What does that have to do with MLM or even regular business? That is the way investing works. For my travel company, I am the boss. In fact, I am the only one. So the question of more money than my boss doesn't apply. For my full-time job as a Network and Computer Security Engineer, yes, I do make more than my boss. Yes, it is fair, as I bring in more money for the company, as people are willing to pay more for my expertise. Again, what does that have to do with MLM recruiting schemes?
"You like to use lies, slander, saracasm and plain immature personal attacks to further yours...how mature."
ReplyDeleteYour guilty of the same thing firemedic it was proven on this board. So, shut the hell up.
Miss Kitty - Your Professional Travel Agent ladies and gentlemen.
ReplyDeleteBut it's the non TTA's that are giving the travel industry a so-called "bad name".
ReplyDelete"As for Coach, I don't think I have ever made any personal attacks against him or the others. I do think they are making the bulk of the money, and that is reflected in the SEC filings. I think that he and the other insiders are at risk of being charged with securities fraud for insider trading, as they were selling stock during the 18 months they were talking with the CA AG, but failed to disclose that as required. Whether they are ultimately charged is up to the SEC."
ReplyDeleteSteve, I have to agree with Seriously on this one. What is wrong with the builders of a company making more of the money? I mean, if you yourself decided to start your own traditional travel agency, footed the money for the building, invested your time and research, hired the employees and paid them (meaning making money off their efforts - also known as leveraging), and managed it, would you expect to make the most money? Seems fair to me but it also seems that if the business model is not like what the tradtionally familiar model is then it is wrong rather than different.
"The difference here is that the bulk of the money is simply from recruiting. Whoever recruits the best makes the most money. If it was whoever sold the most travel made the most money, I would not have an issue with it. When it is recruiting, it is nothing more than a Ponzi scheme in disguise."
There is NO money made from recruiting. There IS money from selling a travel store. The REP position is free of charge so you can't say that money is made buy "recruiting". The RTA position cannot "recruit" because it is only to sell travel. One can only sell travel and the other can only sell travel stores. One can opt to do one or both. Two totally separate businesses and that is where most you the TTA's don't get it. Gerry doesn't get it. Trying to prove that it's an "illegal pyramid" will be really hard when the marketing position is free. So if I hear you correctly you don't like the REP position and the REP position CANNOT sell travel and again it is a free position.
"For my full-time job as a Network and Computer Security Engineer, yes, I do make more than my boss. Yes, it is fair, as I bring in more money for the company, as people are willing to pay more for my expertise. Again, what does that have to do with MLM recruiting schemes?"
So since you bring in more money for the company you get paid more and that is fair in this instance to you? The same goes for the tip earners for YTB...they bring in more money for the company because they work as hard as you do. If everyone for our company worked as hard as you then we would have already be the largest. Fact is, most don't work that hard and it's okay. If you quit working hard for your boss or company would you be able to keep your job? I doubt it. If someone decides not to work hard OR at all, YTB does not fire them. Fair?
Firemedic said:
ReplyDelete"I mean, if you yourself decided to start your own traditional travel agency, footed the money for the building, invested your time and research, hired the employees and paid them (meaning making money off their efforts - also known as leveraging), and managed it, would you expect to make the most money?"
Sigh
When will you guys get it through your heads - many if not most of the TTA's you are talking with are independent home based agents/agencies. YTB has fed you a complete mis-characterization of what constitutes a TTA. That is exactly why so many of us just don't understand your resistance to switching to a host that does not make the top three threads on scam.com on a daily basis.
IF your true focus is on selling travel - you can continue to do it from home, you can have a point and click website from Online Agency or Passport Online for less than you are paying YTB, all of your friends can come to you to book their travel...and people won't avoid your calls anymore!
firemedic-For the record I am not a TTA. An interested bystander. And you are a jack ass, delusional fool indoctrinated into a cult like MLM and use religion to further your cause. Furthermore, I may or may not be a Miss. Happy asshole? Like I said before shut up you jerk. You are an imbecile.
ReplyDeleteFiremedic said, "There is NO money made from recruiting. There IS money from selling a travel store. The REP position is free of charge so you can't say that money is made buy "recruiting". The RTA position cannot "recruit" because it is only to sell travel. One can only sell travel and the other can only sell travel stores. One can opt to do one or both. Two totally separate businesses and that is where most you the TTA's don't get it. Gerry doesn't get it. Trying to prove that it's an "illegal pyramid" will be really hard when the marketing position is free. So if I hear you correctly you don't like the REP position and the REP position CANNOT sell travel and again it is a free position."
ReplyDeleteI know the difference between the REP and RTA positions. You don't like the word "recruiting". I'll concede that to you. You are selling travel stores. The money for the REP is made by selling the stores, but primarily from reaping the bonuses from selling so many stores, and by building a downline of REPs that sell even more stores. It is that building of a downline of REPs that is recruiting. The total number of stores sold leads to the various level bonuses.
Further, as has been explained to me many times, the two businesses are in fact linked. At some level REPs get an override on the travel sales. That links them and I predict will be the downfall of the company.
As for the owners/founders/whatever making the most money, I don't have a problem with that per se. However, look at the income distribution. I don't have the figures to refer to at hand, so if my numbers are off by a few points, please don't crucify me. The top 100 - 200 earners in YTB get about 90% of the income. The rest get virtually nothing. Show me any "regular" corporation where that is true.
"As for the owners/founders/whatever making the most money, I don't have a problem with that per se. However, look at the income distribution. I don't have the figures to refer to at hand, so if my numbers are off by a few points, please don't crucify me. The top 100 - 200 earners in YTB get about 90% of the income. The rest get virtually nothing. Show me any "regular" corporation where that is true."
ReplyDeleteSteve - I won't crucify your numbers though they are off but for the sake of the example I will use them. Show me a "regular" corporation that says "we will pay you whether you actually produce or not". The top earners are just that: the top earners. They put in more time and effort and produce. In this business it is not based on anything but performance. Nothing! Like Seriously said "You do A you get B".
Example of a regular Corportation. It's the same in Real Estate. The top people make 90% of the money! Same thing. Heck 80% never sell a house! I bet some of them go out and bad mouth the reality business too because they failed. No difference here. The difference here is that at ANY time all someone has to do is decide to produce and they get paid for producing. In the meantime YTB won't fire them for not producing, unlike most realtors and corporations. I keep hearing the stats that say that 80% didn't make anything....That was by their choice! They didn't HAVE to make anything.
Just like any other endeavor in life there is a learning curve. If a new REP that has never marketed before doesn't feel there is anything to learn, is not coachable, and tries to do it all on their own, then being part of that 80% is likely. Just like Realtors.
According to my father who attended Red Carpet Days yesterday (09/15/08) there were some other's who were also "Let go " for the same thing. Couple Power Team Leaders and a Level 1 Director. Several folks were talking about this yesterday and he wasn't able to find out any other details to this.
ReplyDelete"It's the same in Real Estate. The top people make 90% of the money! Same thing. Heck 80% never sell a house!"
ReplyDeleteThe problem I have with that analogy is that Real Estate Agents are selling tangible property. The REPs are selling stores. If we were comparing Real Estate Agents to RTAs selling travel, I would be in complete agreement with you.
The problem is that the REPs are selling stores to people that expect to make a bunch of money selling travel without doing much. They are misled by statements of "make money while you sleep". To be fair, I was at an Apple Vacations seminar yesterday, and they touted their affiliate websites exactly the same way. I cringed as much at their statement as I do at the REPs that make those kind of claims.
The YTB presentation on the main YTB website makes all kinds of dollar claims about the money that REPs can make, but not one single dollar claim about RTAs can make. It does say that RTAs make 60% of the commissions that YTB makes on sales made through an RTA website. However, nowhere in that video does it make any dollar projections at all. The whole video is about REPs bringing more RTAs into the fold and making money on the commissions for selling RTA websites and for bonuses.
To go back to your analogy, Real Estate agents are selling tangible property which at least must have an appraisal of its worth. Whether the appraisal is accurate is a matter for debate on another day. Even YTB doesn't make or offer an appraisal of the value of having an RTA website. They gloss right over that in the video.
When you are trying to sell someone an RTA website, how do you convince them that it is worth their investment, particularly compared to other host agency alternatives? Do you stick to just the travel site and commission details, or do you bring up the REP bonuses? If the latter, you have just shown once again, that while YTB claims two separate companies, they are always deeply entangled together. If the former, I'd love to hear your speech as to the economics behind being purely a YTB RTA.
YTB doesn't 'fire' anyone because in reality none of the REPS or RTAs actually 'work' for YTB. Please let me know if this has changed so I can let the IRS know that YTB owes back taxes.
ReplyDeleteSo when if I was to buy a website from outside of YTB would the website then be considered a "tangible" product? I mean, when I type in my travel site store name it comes up every time and when I book on it I get my tickets. How is that not tangible?
ReplyDeleteSteve - I can see that this will go round and round because you see the networking industry through a different set of glasses than we do. I used to feel the same way as you did about it until I actually took the time to actually look at it. So, no matter what is said, until you are willing to take off those glasses, not to agree but to understand, then you will resist the chance it is not as black and white as you think it to be. I do believe that you are probably one of the smartest writers on here though and I respect you. Believe it or not I actually respect most on here whether or not they feel the same of me.
We are a lot more alike than we are different but once people realize that it makes it harder to tear them down. As long as one can think it "us" against "them" and they are "not like us" then they feel justified in saying the things they say.
Firemedic-are you making money or are you still hoping to make money? I think that is a critical question. And I am not talking about a few bucks here and there. I am talking about a sustainable second income that covers your expenses and profit?
ReplyDeleteWhen you say we need to understand but not agree---we do understand. Especially Steve as we attended the Founder's Tour together and have gone over the SEC files and so forth so we do understand. I thin what you are really trying to say is that we will not know until we buy into it.
Firemedic - The website is a tangible product, it just doesn't work with the analogy you gave. I wrote a guest posting for this blog that will be released on John's schedule. It will address more completely the point I was trying to make. Please wait for that to appear, and we can discuss this further.
ReplyDeleteI go away and look at this!! I guess I have some catching up to do!
ReplyDelete