In this crazy saga of MLM and travel, it becomes very hard to know who is telling the truth. When I first published my column on MSNBC.com I was informed by a RTA that I was not aware of the following "facts":
We also booked 280,000 in bookings with Carnival Cruise Lines...We also FYI have CLIA department with people who are from CLIA, along with Carnival, and Hotels.com, right in our corporate office, so if we were at all a scam why are we affiliated with those companies,a nd why would they do business with us? By the way beginning September 1, 07 every state will have to have 1500.00 in bookings to get the ytb IATAN card, and 2500 in bookings to get the CLIA card from the cruise line international association, which is the one I have, and you MUST take an exam.Well, being in the industry for over a decade myself, I became a little jealous that CLIA, Carnival and Hotels.com all were placing employees in the YTB headquarters. I paid my dues, I sold Carnival, why was I not offered the opportunity to have representatives in my office?
But I sent an email off to the three and CLIA responded:
from XXXXXXX@cruising.org
to john@jvegroup.net,
cc Shelly CoppersmithXXXX@ytb.com,
XXXXXXXXretailtravel@yahoo.com,
Bob Sharak XXXX@cruising.org,
date Aug 17, 2007 9:10 AM
subject FW: YTB
John,
We have no onsite CLIA paid employees at YTB, or another agency for that matter.
Thank you.
Gaye Stewart-Loudis
Cruise Lines International Association
CLIA
Director of Membership
910 SE 17th Street
Ft. Lauderdale, FL 33316-2968
754.224.2205 phone
754.224.2252 fax
XXXX@cruising.org
www.cruising.org
Well, since I had gone to the horse's mouth, I took a respected association in the travel industry's word. I chose not to address the 280,000 bookings with Carnival or the special deal they apparently had with IATAN for a $1500.00 annual commission requirement.
But now again, almost 5 months later, I see the following post as a comment to my blog:
CLIA does have an office with CLIA representatives in YTB HQ (as well as other agencies). These people handle any CLIA questions regarding the card travel, training or anything associated with it. This includes overseeing that all CLIA card requests are channeled properly from YTB HQ to CLIA HQ. The reps at YTB HQ do not issue the CLIA cards themselves.So now, what? This is two separate people telling me that CLIA has employees at YTB? Maybe someone reading this blog might be able to get someone from CLIA to post a comment to set the record straight. Or maybe it might be better coming from YTB so they can let us know exactly which associations and vendors maintain offices in their headquarters.
Inquiring minds want to know!
Who the hell really cares!
ReplyDeleteWell, as long as you ask. I would like to know. I am sure anyone joining the ranks of YTB would like to know--after all having someone at HQ to process your card is a nice benefit.
ReplyDeleteI am sure YTB might like to know what their people are saying.
I am sure CLIA might like to know as well.
In general, I think a lot of folks might be interested. Is CLIA so deep under the bedcovers with YTB that they are subsidizing their home office by employing people there? Or are the folks representing YTB just accustomed to making any statement that they feel may put someone in their place?
People care because it seems as if YTB "agents" are being caught in lies!
ReplyDeleteJohn,
ReplyDeleteIt is entirely possible that CLIA does have people in the YTB office. It's also possible that they are denying it because they don't want to be associated with a "card mill" such as YTB.
And we keep hearing this thing about 1500 and 2500 worth of sales to get a new card. Well I have heard nothing about this from the IATAN. Are they on board with this? I doubt it, they severed their ties with YTB period. Also shouldn't YTB require this from ALL their "agents" if they do? Thus wipe the slate clear. It would make me unhappy if I was joining and I had to sell travel and Joe Smoe down the street got in before the date and got his card. Regardless this is gonna kill their recruitment drive. They will always be looked at as a "card mill" no matter what they try.
Hmmm...should we believe CLIA or a director at YTB?
ReplyDeleteI'm sure that with so many employees at YTB HQ you'll have an official reply on the record very soon...
I just wonder how many articles about conmen who aren't travel agents or YTB agents we'll have to read about while we wait...
This is most probably a simple case of YTB folks spinning aimlessly. Anything said with sufficient conviction will be accepted as fact. Who is going to go out there and check?
ReplyDeleteJust another example of creative invention by those who only care about collecting their vigorish from a "downline" before it all collapses and they move on to the next Big Miracle.
Agents lie
ReplyDeleteQ: I’m writing about the recent Consumer Reports survey that suggests almost half of all travel agents lie to clients when asked about the lowest airfare. I saw your commentary that dismissed the study, but I have another perspective.
I work for one of the three largest hotel chains in the country. I speak regularly with travel agents. They lie all the time.
I only wish I could tell guests who call me, “don’t ever use a travel agent.”
Agents lie about the cheapest airfares as well as the best rates at hotels. Unless a client gives a ton of business to an agency, they are looking out for themselves - to get the highest commission.
I have actually had travel agents tell me, “don’t book the negotiated corporate rate, it’s not commissionable. Don’t book the group rate. Don’t book the promo rate available. I’ve got to make a living, too.”
I appreciate that agents have gotten screwed on commissions by airlines. However, if this is going to be the standard policy of travel agencies, then they should either charge their customers for the service or advise customers that they’ll look for the lowest rate available - as long as they make the highest available commission.
I personally think travel agents need to face facts. Because of the open use of the Internet to check fares and travelers waking up and educating themselves on checking airfares and hotel and rental car rates on their own, this kind of behavior is not going to be tolerated much longer.
Don’t you think that when travelers will find out they’ve been screwed their agents will lose the business?
from elliot.org
You ought to get the link correct
ReplyDeletehttp://www.elliott.org/the-troubleshooter/agents-lie/
And the answer is also worthy of a read. The column is also 7 years old!
John said, "And the answer is also worthy of a read. The column is also 7 years old!"
ReplyDeleteOh my goodness. If the lies were that bad 7 years ago, think how much worse they must be today!:>(
Skunks don't change their stripes.
Here's what the YTBer who tried to recruit me recommended only a month ago...I'm in the NE, going to MCO...she recommended Northwest thru DTW instead of a direct flight on SWA...it would cost me an extra $80 and even worse, 4 extra hours, but that's what was on her site.
ReplyDeleteThe B&M agent who booked my cruise recommended the direct flight for less money. Who's screwing who? And who do you think deserves the business?
And off the topic of the thread in only 6 posts...what took so long?...lol
ReplyDeleteBut what about CLIA in the home office? Did you not read the topic of the post?
ReplyDeleteI had to respond to the "Agents Lie" post...because I agree. They lie, deceive by omission and know less about travel than I do. YTB agents, that is.
ReplyDeleteAnd it's hard to keep them on-topic.
"Every CLIA agency has the same process. Applications are sent to our processing center in Massachesetts - where the agency membership is verified as well as the training requirements.
ReplyDeleteWe have no staff or office in any agency organization. Any organization may have an internal resource dedicated to CLIA training, cards, etc. But CLIA does not have an onsite presence or special arrangement with any one group."
iontop so elequently said...
ReplyDelete"I had to respond to the "Agents Lie" post...because I agree. They lie, deceive by omission and know less about travel than I do. YTB agents, that is."
Hahahaha iontop your post is laughable. Pretty childish indeed! Maybe you wouldn't feel so cranky if you wore a double set of Depends.
John;
ReplyDeleteWe have many “Departments” in YTB who specialize in several areas of our business. We have a “Groups Department”, a “Legal Department”, an “IT Department”, a “Training Department”, and we also have a “Credentials Department” which handles all the CLIA Applications that come in after testing.
The description this YTB RTA is using is very accurate:
“These people handle any CLIA questions regarding the card travel, training or anything associated with it. This includes overseeing that all CLIA card requests are channeled properly from YTB HQ to CLIA HQ. The reps at YTB HQ do not issue the CLIA cards themselves.”
The disconnect I believe stems from the fact that CLIA actually issues the Credentials and not YTB.
This department is employed by YTB and not CLIA.
YTB does have representatives who spend a considerable amount of time at the home office in Woodriver, (Ann with Carnival) who work with YTB to implement trainings, promotions, and offer assistance to reach our sales goals, and when our 135,000 square foot Home Office renovation is complete, we will have “office space” available for them to work.
While time spent with YTB may not be “exclusive” like it is with Shanghai Spring International, it is “extensive”.
http://www.travelweekly.com/articles.aspx?articleid=59537
"You ought to get the link correct
ReplyDeletehttp://www.elliott.org/the-troubleshooter/agents-lie/
And the answer is also worthy of a read. The column is also 7 years old!"
What's really funny about this is that the answer is actually rather "pro" Agent! You should read an entire peice before you reference it!
What's more, Chris Elliot was a bit "anti" Agent about 7 years ago, but he has come around and is really very supportive of Travel Agents now - I should know, I argued with him for years! (Don't have to now, though....)
When the airlines cut commissions a lot of agents did resort to marking up prices to try to survive. I think it's interested that you have framed it as agents trying to rip people off though. There isn't a business anywhere that doesn't mark up their product for more than what they paid for it. It's called profitability. Not theft.
ReplyDeleteIontop, I believe your comments are completely without merit. You can find dishonesty in any business or profession. Please keep in mind that the reason this issue began is because of YTBers calling themselves travel agents. So if you believe all travel agents are dishonest, you would be including yourself in that mix.
"YTBers calling themselves travel agents. So if you believe all travel agents are dishonest, you would be including yourself in that mix."
ReplyDeleteNot me. I'm a RTA, Referring Travel Agent. Big difference. Actually we are not in the "mix" with your dishonest counterparts. If so, JF the rooster and all you old hens would be clucking about it on this blog...guarenteed!
Ahh that must be CM with the old hens comment. So now travel agents are dishonest (laughable) and you don't want the TA title, but you want the TA benefits..which is it?
ReplyDeleteTT, I think you misunderstood my post, I wasn't really ageeing...see the last line. It referred to YTB and I meant the recruiting in particular.
ReplyDeleteI definitely don't believe all travel agents are dishonest and I don't believe all YTBers are dishonest. In my previous post I was referring to the come-on I received to go to the recruitment meeting and to what I heard at that meeting. It certainly wasn't an honest representation of the travel industry and they omitted basic information that wasn't conducive to recruiting.
Anyone that joined up after I left may not have done so because they were dishonest but because they were misled. I stand by my original post and will add that there are no doubt many honest people who join YTB...that would help explain the high turnover rate.
Claim: high turnover rate
ReplyDeleteProof:
References:
Thank you.
The turnover at YTB is significant. At the end of 2005, it had about 21,000 registered travel agents. In 2006, it added about 59,000 new ones, but at the end of 2006 it still had only about 60,000, a net gain of about 750 registered travel agents for the year. Nearly 97 percent of its travel agents lasted on average less than one year.
ReplyDeleteChicago Tribune Dec 9th
No need to thank me.
"Chicago Tribune Dec 9th
ReplyDeleteNo need to thank me."
Those numbers are flawed.
Can you do better?
Like I didn't know that was coming....
ReplyDeleteYou should probably write Coach or Kim and get their numbers. Don't forget to post their reply here....I'm looking forward to it...
Just what I thought. Another empty claim. You are on top..aren't you? ;>)
ReplyDeleteNo, the eye is on top...of the pyramid. Our founding fathers put it there so we would look out for pyramid scammers. lol
ReplyDeleteAnd you wanted a reference as to the high turnover...you got it...but you think it's flawed? Proof and references? Coach is on top...post his reply.
John, is it possible to delte the comments that are COMPLTELY off topic? I know this will practically remove Anon and iontop, but jeez, can't people stay on topic.
ReplyDeleteHaving said that, I posted it somewhere before, but there are no CLIA people at HQ. There are people that go through every CLIA application that's sent to YTB and make sure they meet the requirements (correct info, authorization, correct year of application, etc.) to be sent on to CLIA. Then the cards are issued from their office.
I am not deleting any comments. Personally, I am sure there are no CLIA people at YTB, but I had hoped to demonstrate that HQ is not putting a clear message to the masses since two separate people (one a director) has informed me that there are indeed CLIA staff at HQ.
ReplyDeleteOne hand does not know what the other is doing!
Anonymous said "Those numbers are flawed, can you do better?"
ReplyDeleteThese are taken from http://www.ytb.com/downloads/RTA_Earnings.htm
I must assume YTB would present numbers they felt were correct.
Month End #RTAs RTAs active for at least 12 months
July-06 38,092 7,208
July-07 106,102 16,846
So, in July of 2006, there were 38,092 RTAs. In July of 2007, there were 16,846 that had been active for the previous 12 months. That means that 38092 - 16,846 = 21,246 quit during the previous 12 months. That represents 55.7% of all RTAs in July of 2006 had quit by July of 2007.
Again, those are numbers presented by YTB themselves. Is that proof enough?
Define "sex"? In a Clintonian world, you need to define inactive. I suspect that that report indicates that they are RTAs that did not book any travel. However, if they paid their monthly fee, they are still considered active.
ReplyDeleteHey John,
ReplyDeleteI did some research. There is an office at YTB HQ that handles all the CLIA applications, and these people are YTB. They HAVE been trained by the CRTA to handle YTB's part of the processing. What this means is that when a CRTA takes a CLIA test, it gets sent directly to CLIA. The CRTA then receives a pass/fail notice in the mail along with required paperwork directly from CLIA. The CRTA then sends this paperwork into YTB for processing and making sure the CRTA has all the info correctly stated. Then it gets sent to CLIA who do the final processing and issuing of the CLIA card to the CRTA. It's done this way o that not only does CLIA know that a CRTA is verified, but also so YTB HQ knows which of their agents are CLIA certified.
This is how the process works, and you can verify it with YTB HQ and CLIA as I did.
PROUD--that is quite a different version than this one:
ReplyDeleteCLIA does have an office with CLIA representatives in YTB HQ (as well as other agencies).
isn't it? Maybe you ought to let Metre Wishomn know what you found out. So, somewhere along the line, the facts were changed.
As to having a YTB person facilitating the CLIA application, personally I think it is overkill in terms of personnel but hey it's YTBs company. So this person merely looks for blank lines and verifies that they are a paid up member of YTB and rubber stamps a signature?
Yes John, it is, but at least now we have the facts right.
ReplyDeleteAnd just so you know... CLIA issues those CLIA cards... NOT YTB.
OMG!!
ReplyDeleteOf course we KNOW that!!! That's why we were challenging you! How dense can you be?!
john what is yoru e-mail. I got my new Bently
ReplyDelete