From yesterday's Chicago Tribune, another more in depth column talks about YTB.
Just some observations from this side:
When questioned about the 7 trillion dollar travel market, it seemed the response was eerily similar to the claim of travel sales to Travel Weekly, and the recent one day sale:
"It's a number that has been published," said J. Kim Sorensen, president and CEO of YTB Travel Network, when asked about the $7 trillion figure. He wasn't certain of its origin but believed it was from Forrester Research, the Cambridge, Mass-based travel research company.
The journalist discusses the revenue streams. Again, as I have said for a long time, the business is NOT about travel:
The YTB representatives who prosper earn most of their income from the sale of travel Web sites to other agents, not from the sale of travel itself. In 2006, YTB made 72 percent of its revenue from the sale of online travel stores and monthly fees and 15 percent from travel commissions. Another 11 percent comes from the sale of training programs and marketing materials and the rest (less than 2 percent) comes from franchise fees and "other."He discusses the lucrative earnings when you sell travel through YTB:
Most YTB agents had little or no commission on sales of travel in 2006, according to company documents filed with the SEC. At the end of 2006, YTB reported it had nearly 60,000 registered travel agents. For the year, it paid those agents about $4.9 million in travel commissions, or less than $82 per travel agent.And he discusses the turnover. This is very interesting as it is a number that is very difficult to obtain:
The turnover at YTB is significant. At the end of 2005, it had about 21,000 registered travel agents. In 2006, it added about 59,000 new ones, but at the end of 2006 it still had only about 60,000, a net gain of about 750 registered travel agents for the year. Nearly 97 percent of its travel agents lasted on average less than one year.It goes on about an RTA that was laughed when he presented his ID card for a discount, and then needed to wait a year for a refund and had to file a complaint wiht the BBB to do so.
And perhaps in the most interesting sentence, when Sorensen identifies someone in a YTB video as a "REP" who was earning discounts for travel. I thought Reps sold stores and RTAs got the perks:
As recently as Oct. 31, a person whom Sorensen identified as a rep talked on the YTB Web site about getting a $500 a night hotel in Prague, Czech Republic, for $150 using YTB travel agent credentials.
As to the $7 trillion figure:
ReplyDeleteEncompassing all components of Travel & Tourism consumption, investment, government spending and exports, in 2007 Travel & Tourism demand is expected to generate some US$7,060 billion of economic activity worldwide, growing to US$13,231 billion by 2017.
-- World Travel and Tourism Council
http://www.wttc.travel/eng/About_WTTC/Annual_Reports/index.php
I will defend YTB--that number SHOULD be available but it is not. I took a lot of flack with my $525B number in the column as it was based on outbound US tourism from some study.
ReplyDeleteOne would think that this is an easy number to find, but it is not!
From the article:
ReplyDeleteThe turnover at YTB is significant. At the end of 2005, it had about 21,000 registered travel agents. In 2006, it added about 59,000 new ones, but at the end of 2006 it still had only about 60,000, a net gain of about 750 registered travel agents for the year. Nearly 97 percent of its travel agents lasted on average less than one year.
So at the end of 2005, there were 21,000 RTAs. At the end of 2006 there were 60,000 RTAs. This equals a net gain of 750???
This author must have attended the JF School of Arithmetic.
BTW, the actual numbers are 21,399 at the end of 2005, and 60,551 at the end of 2006. 39,152 more RTAs, or a 283% increase. Now, at nearly 135,000, we are up another 223% from the end of last year.
The World Travel and Tourism Council report for 2007-2008 breaks down the figures any way you may want -- domestic, foreign, by country, by sub-industry -- fascinating, really.
ReplyDeleteWe really should only be concerned with the amount of travel bookings generated in the US -- not some extrapolated all-encompassing number.
ReplyDeleteOops on the math. I agree, but I wonder how many dropped out? How many continue to pay and be counted as active till they realize they have been charged each month.
ReplyDeleteDo you have a link to the figures? I honestly could not find one.
And if YTB is expanding to Canada and the UK as they claim, worldwide figures might be appropriate.
Well, we will be in Canada sometime in the first quarter of 2008. UK, I don't know. Haven't heard anything official.
ReplyDeleteThere's nothing wrong with the math...21,000 plus 59,000 equals 60,000 if 20,000 dropped out.
ReplyDeleteThat's what the article is saying...more keep signing up because pyramids grow exponentially...but they're not making money and dropping out only to be replaced by new recruits.
Remember the old saying..."There's an RTA born every minute."
Okay, let's use the numbers found at http://www.ytb.com/downloads/RTA_Earnings.htm
ReplyDeleteIn July 2006, there were 38,092 RTAs. In July 2007, there were 16,846 RTAs that had been active for at least 12 months. That means 21,246 RTAs that were members in July 2006 quit before July 2007. That's 55.7% of all RTAs as of June 2006 did not make it to July 2007. That's quite an attrition rate.
If YTB were really better than sliced bread as some would have us beleive, whay are so many people quitting?
"If YTB were really better than sliced bread as some would have us beleive, whay are so many people quitting?"
ReplyDeleteThe same reason fat people are fat. When they go on a diet and don't see immediate results, they quit.When people join a thing like this they expect money without having to do anything. When they don't see it they quit.
I'm pretty sure this guy from the article was the same way. He was in for only three months and then quit? He was looking for an easy buck.
With regard to the numbers, in July of 07 those people werte active for 12 consecutive months or did they include people that maybe missed a payment or suspended their account for a few months?
"If YTB were really better than sliced bread as some would have us beleive, whay are so many people quitting?"
ReplyDeleteThe real question is, why are so many staying? 130,000 strong.
"MORE BAD PRESS"
ReplyDeleteTravel agent arrested for fraud
BY PATRICK KANE
STAFF WRITER 11/15/2007
COLONIAL HEIGHTS - The owner of a now-defunct travel company was arrested this month for fraud.
Cindy A. Pelter, 46, of the 300 block of Libby Avenue in Hopewell, was taken into custody by Colonial Heights police after a former customer filed a warrant for her arrest.
Colonial Heights Sheriff Todd Wilson said Pelter was in processing for about a half hour the night of Thursday, Nov. 1. She was photographed, booked and released on a $5,000 personal recognizance bond. The travel agent was charged with one Class 4 felony count of obtaining money by false pretense, Wilson said. The maximum penalty for a Class 4 felony is imprisonment for 10 years and a fine of $100,000.
Well...she made bail...now she can join YTB.
ReplyDelete"Nearly 97 percent of its travel agents lasted on average less than one year."
When you ask why so many are staying are you referring to the whole 3%?
"MORE BAD PRESS"
ReplyDeletePHILADELPHIA -- A travel agent is under arrest after a Philadelphia family paid $32,000 for a Disney cruise vacation and never got their tickets.
"MORE BAD PRESS"
Travel Agent Arrested For Not Booking Trip
01/30/06 - Crime Stupid - Chet - 5 Comments
An Akron travel agent was arrested Friday, NewsChannel5 reported.
Detectives said a Wilkesboro, N.C. company paid Michael Reed $680,000 for a business trip for their employees. Reed was the owner of Michael Reed Travel Inc. located at 76 S. Main St.
I read the article before you wrote your Blog.
ReplyDeleteA big question here. Have any of you ever been in an MLM program? Back in the 70’s I signed up for Amway. I learned a lot about myself. The first was that I love the laundry soap and a few other products. The second thing I learned was that I can not recruit people. I will never be that kind of a sales person. After about 6 months I dropped out. They sell dreams. I have dreams but they are not the same dreams and my path is not the same path.
I learned that it is impossible to saturate the market. The lovely charts never work like they look. Some people are born salesmen. They will build huge downlines. They lose control because the new people never learn how to duplicate the program. Most only talk to the family and a few close friends. After a few months you have a lifetime supply of soap in the garage and more tapes than you will ever listen to. Then you drop out. It is for this reason I do not see MLM’s as a threat to the travel industry.
No one in the upline at a travel MLM cares if the downline sells travel. The only reason to sell travel is to earn your card. The amount of commission they earn is hardly worth the effort it takes to earn it. The flip side is that if you are leasing a travel site, you are paying a monthly fee for a service. The monthly fees make the MLM legitimate. They are indeed selling a product. As long as the credit card is charged monthly, these people are active. The upline gets a cut and some of them get rich.
John your lovely math is about as meaningful as the charts. Some do make money most do not. A few get mad and most consider the whole thing a learning experience. While you think $500 is a lot of money I see it as a membership fee. I live in California and $500 is a drop in the bucket. I spent that last week on food at the Travel Convention. I have no intension of joining YTB. I do however see it in a very clear light.
They are Zero threat. The ones who want to sell travel will find a way to make it happen. The others will ride the MLM wave until it becomes a calm sea. Then they will move on to greener pastures.
"MORE BAD PRESS"
ReplyDeleteTravel Agency Owner Arrested on Fraud Charges
Updated: Sep 25, 2007 07:22 AM PDT
Stay Informed and Help Us Cover
(MONTGOMERY)-Attorney General Troy King is announcing the arrest of a woman who owned a travel agency in Lee County for multiple counts of first and second-degree theft and fraudulent use of a credit card.
Elizabeth Ruth Atkins, 31, who owned Atkins Travel Agency in Salem, was arrested by an agent of Attorney General King's Office and taken to the Lee County Jail.
"MORE BAD PRESS"
Travel agent charged with booking adults as infants.
A travel agent who also is an airport screener has been charged with stealing more than $55,000 in a ticketing scheme by charging passengers adult fares but reporting them as lower infant prices and pocketing the difference, prosecutors said.
I'm not sure who the person is who keeps posting bad press about traditional travel agents, but here's a little something you should know.
ReplyDeleteThere are bad travel agents. And bad lawyers and judges and priests.
There are bad dentists and doctors and teachers and parents too.
Again please keep in mind that you are posting stuff on an anti-mlm blog and should expect to find some negativity towards travel mlms. If the only thing you can come up with is an article regarding a traditional travel agent that did something bad, well, then you've got some more fishing to do.
If you want to make the argument that the mlm model is better than a traditional travel agent model, than make that argument rather than this lame-o attempt at mud slinging. Show us how you are better educated, better trained, can provide better service than we can. Then you'll have something to talk about. Show us your test scores, your certifications, and legitimate, glowing testimonials from your clients. Again I couldn't care less how much your home office is making.I don't care how many people you have in your downline either. Show me a YTBer that consistently takes home over $40,000 per year from selling travel. Anyone???
christina said, "The second thing I learned was that I can not recruit people. I will never be that kind of a sales person. After about 6 months I dropped out.
ReplyDeleteSome people are born salesmen. They will build huge downlines. They lose control because the new people never learn how to duplicate the program."
Cristina,
In 1906, Italian economist Vilfredo Pareto created a mathematical formula to describe the unequal distribution of wealth in his country, observing that twenty percent of the people owned eighty percent of the wealth.
The 80/20 Rule means that in anything a few (20 percent) are vital and many(80 percent) are trivial.
Also 80 percent of your sales will come from 20 percent of your sales staff. 20 percent of your staff will cause 80 percent of your problems, but another 20 percent of your staff will provide 80 percent of your production.
Christina, this applies to all types of sales. If there are 10 car salesmen on a lot 80% of the sales will come from 2 sales people. That explains why there is so much transitory sales people in the car business as well as other sales orginizations. 80% are not making any real money. That's why so many drop out to seek other non-commissionable employment.
This rule also applies to travel sales agents, including the MLM models. YTB or any other MLM is not to be blamed for the 80/20 rules for it is a natural law of life. In fact, in an MLM, it's most likey to be 90/10.
I've noticed that the YTB people on this blog are VERY defensive. They think they need to protect their decision to enter into the MLM with negative reports on real travel agents.
ReplyDeleteWhat the YTBers are doing is completely different from what normal travel agents do. I think it's stated that by joining YTB you REFER people to your website, where they can quickly and conveniently book travel. For more complex trips, they can consult their YTB RTA and they CAN organize a trip, although usually the only ones that do so are properly trained through classes from the website.
But they're not a travel agent. They don't have a license, which is why they are called refering travel agents. They refer. So for some reason they keep defending themselves and saying they are better, when they really don't even do the same thing as a traditional travel agent.
Well, that's how I see it anyway. I don't really get it, but that's how I see it.
And Temptress: what do you mean there are bad dentists? Are you an anti-dentite? Sorry, I had to :)
Travel Temptress said...
ReplyDelete"I'm not sure who the person is who keeps posting bad press about traditional travel agents, but here's a little something you should know.
There are bad travel agents."
Agreed TT, but what are you and your professional orginizations doing about it? What are they doing to make those folks scamed by travel agents "whole" again?
That whole 80/20 rule does NOT apply to most sales positions. Look here-- a car dealership of 10 salespeople that sells $1M in cars a year. Are you saying that 2 salespeople are responsible for $800K of the sales and 8 people are responsible for $200K? What dope are you smoking?
ReplyDeleteIf 80% of my employees are only accounting for 20% of my sales, they are out the door! And to be honest, it is pretty equal in my experience.
But my experience has been in businesses where people understand the concept of working for money. Not referring people to pay fees so they can make money.
“The 80/20 Rule means that in anything a few (20 percent) are vital and many (80 percent) are trivial.”
ReplyDelete“This rule also applies to travel sales agents, including the MLM models. YTB or any other MLM is not to be blamed for the 80/20 rules for it is a natural law of life. In fact, in an MLM, it's most likely to be 90/10.”
This is much cleaner way to state the same thing I said earlier. I agree with this theory. All the math and numbers being tossed around never take this 80/20 rule into account. The 80% are supporting the 20%. The 20% will take the money and run. The 80% will fade back into the life they have always had.
I do not blame anyone for this as it is human nature. Do what you love and do it well. I love selling travel and it gives me a good living. MLM is to much stress for to small a chance to win. I do respect those who have done it and won. I have won in the field I know and love. I have home court advantage over the MLM agent when it comes to selling travel.
John I do not know what model you use. But in commission based sales the 80/20 rule is darn close to the truth. If you are really lucky enough to have all your employees giving 80% or more, count your blessings. You must have done an excellent job of screening your applicants for the high end achievers. I have a ton of friends who own businesses and they are always commenting that no one cares like they do. Most have 1 or 2 super stars and the rest just do the job. And go home as soon as the clock tells them they are free. I work for myself from home. 100% of my output gives me my income. I had employees at one time. I choose to do without that headache.
john said, "That whole 80/20 rule does NOT apply to most sales positions. Look here-- a car dealership of 10 salespeople that sells $1M in cars a year. Are you saying that 2 salespeople are responsible for $800K of the sales and 8 people are responsible for $200K?"
ReplyDeleteThat is possible...but..
If you indeed hired a raw sales force and gave them training, 20% would make the most sales. Not smoking anything. Go research it.
In your small business, the statistics are the same. The difference is you can interview and hire and pick and choose to increase your sales volume.
In an organization of 130,000, the 80/20 (or 90/10) rules applies since they are not individually interviewed and hired as travel agents.
This is what I hate about editorial columns and opinions. People take it as gospel and do not look at the facts. The idea that 97% of YTB agents last less than is year is ridiculous!
ReplyDeleteI have been with YTB for over 4 years. We have 520 active RTAs that are paying their $49.95. Over the 4 years, 723 have signed on as "REPS" and, of those 723, 652 were RTAs. YTB has a position where you can become a REP for free and sell the travel websites, but you do not have your own travel website. It normally does not work because it is hard to sell something that you do not own yourself, but people have signed up for it with the expectation of upgrading to an RTA.
Taking the figures for our Team, 520 RTAs over 4 years are still active out of 652 . . . that's a 79% retention rate. We're certainly not seeing 97 quitting after one year!
Well said lbtravel...As a YTB REP Only, trying to sell someone a travel website is like the 80% of those car salesmen trying to sell a car without a car lot.
ReplyDeleteTravel Temptress said "Show us your test scores, your certifications, and legitimate, glowing testimonials from your clients."
ReplyDeleteCuriously, can someone be so kind to please provide the information on how to obtain the classification of "Travel Agent"?
I heard with MLM travel you can pay a fee and pass some test to become an RTA or CTA whatever as that's MLMs "title" indicating you agreed to abide by their terms/conditions, paid fee, and maybe passed a test.
But, for the life of me, I cannot find no primary governing body that collects fees and regulates the authorization and use of the title "Travel Agent" similar to organizations that govern titles used by Doctors, Lawyers, Accountants, and other regulated professions.
Are you B&M folks and home-based people sure your not perpetrating a fraud like all those "More Bad Press" postings on here?
Well...no matter how much I may dislike the negativity MLM brings to the travel industry primarily through the points outlined by John, being a business owner, I do agree with and understand the approach they take: build many stores to expand brand and presense in the marketplace to capture more market share. That's the basic licensing and franchise model.
ReplyDeleteI have to humble myself and at least give YTB some credit. Being publicly traded or not, the corporate office is outspoken putting up a fight and takes adversity head on taking a stand for what they believe. That's more than you can say for all the other MLMs in travel. Smart though...let YTB take the blunt of the resistance given they are the Goliath and wait and see where the bodies fall.
Friday, July 14, 2006
ReplyDeleteFormer travel agent sentenced on fraud chargesSt. Louis Business Journal
This Former Chesterfield, Mo., travel agent Karen Hartstein was sentenced Thursday to 11 years and three months in prison for fraud involving an airline and cruise ticket Ponzi scheme, according to U.S. Attorney Catherine Hanaway.
Hartstein, 42, of the 1200 block of Woodchase Lane in Chesterfield, also was ordered to pay more than $2 million in restitution.
Dear what's in a name...
ReplyDeleteYou are absolutely right. There is no governing body that states what you have to do to use the title "travel agent" which is exactly how this whole mess got started in the first place. I graduated from the travel & tourism program at Ohio University. Because of this I feel that I can use the title without question.
Traditional agents typically have education and training in the travel industry, and provide a service. In my mind, simply referring someone to a website is not providing a service. If the person who cleans my house showed up and tried to get me to mop, I'd show her the door. So I can't understand why YTBers believe they are travel agents. They are website sellers, not travel agents. I've asked the question time and again " If you owned one of those adult sites, would that make you a porn star?" and the answer is of course no. Because YTB and other mlm's have abused our travel agent id cards and fams, these poor mlmers actually believe they are travel agents, but are not. And because most mlms have no minimum requirements for their "agents" there are thousands of people running around calling themselves travel agents who can't even tell you where Hawaii is on a map. On the day of the big Carnival sale I called and requested a cruise that sailed from Arizona and was told it would be no problem. So, having all these untrained, uneducated people running around calling themselves travel agents has done nothing but damage the credibility of those of us who really are travel agents.
Personally, I think that coach guy is an idiot. I would never allow the caliber of people that I have seen representing YTB to represent my company, and I can't imagine that 5 years from now they will still be here.
I am working with several other agents here in Ohio and the Dept of Commerce to set the standard in this state for what you have to do to sell travel in Ohio. This current mlm system not only takes advantage of people who fall for their "get rich quick" schemes, but is bad for the consumers who buy from them as well, and the RTA can offer them no assistance or guidance in planning their trip. And while it is true that there is an endless amount of information on the internet, it can't replace a person who has actually been there.
TravelTemptress: All that travel experience and you still live in Ohio?
ReplyDeleteI signed up for duty in Vietnam to get out of there. That is the coldest place on the planet. Ever try to drive a car there on an icy brick road?
The 80/20 rule is pretty right on.
As a sales marketing manager for many years, my sales usually would account for 50% and the rest of my sales force would makeup the balance. John has never owed a car lot either.
As far as the negative postings. I can see your objection. These folks are the conventional travel professionals you all keep spouting off about, for the most part.
Yes, we all have em, the difference is YTB has promised and will refund or has delivered on that promise.
You "professionals" want to just ignore it and move on. "OH, that's old news". How can a two day old story continue to be old news?
THE POINT IS...While you continue your efforts to attack our business model, your business model is sucking big wind. Every article of this kind, I'm speaking of professional conventional travel arrest, will drive more customers away from your model to our direct purchase model. Don't you see that?
John you should be proud of yourself, "Oops," another half-truth attack on a excellant company and very effective business model. You need to get credit for it all John.
Have you seen my card John,still have not got it? This is the sorriest card mill I've ever seen.
Oops, guess you just lied again, or are misguided when you named YTB a Card Mill in your MSNBC article and on your petition, where you again only named YTB.
More lies, spouted off by you and copied by other travel columnist, too lazy to do the research.
Oops, millions stolen annually by your professionals and the conventional travel model Oops, Oops, Oops.
No travel media in arms, no leaders working on solutions, no vendors, assoiciations or cruise lines black-balling anyone?
You professionals are giving us Referral Travel Agents a blackeye in this industry.
What are you going to do about it?
RobertsResorts.Net
EAB...my column did not say YTB was a card mill. The term card mill was not used in column at all. I said you issued your own card in hopes that it might be accepted someplace for discounted travel.
ReplyDeleteThe petition did reference YTB and others and clearly stated that THE ISSUE was not specific to a particular company.
If you read it (rather than attempting to enter BS names and comments) you will see that the purpose is to have vendors (primarily) stop supporting the MLM model or if they DO support it to refine the way they do and eliminate the ability of the MLM model to trade on perks and discounted travel.
Literacy--it is a good thing. I read where you were threatening Mark Ewing as well.
HEY COACH---are you reading this? Your RTAs are continuing to threaten people that oppose you. Was this taught in the Become a Travel Agent in 4 Easy Open Book Hours class?
Earl,
ReplyDeleteUnless you have the IATA number of the persons who were arrested, I would assume they were a YTB agent. Since YTBers are claiming to be travel agents, it just as easily could have been one of you rather than one of us that committed the crimes. So before you make any more attempts to discredit us, you should remember that you are also discrediting yourself.
My sales figures and my happy clients speak for themselves. I think if you check with our rep at TI you will learn that we are their number one agency in this district. So when you ask " what are you going to do about it?" let me tell you- I am going to continue to run a fantastic, profitable business with the same integrity I always have. If you want to compare P&Ls at the end of the year I am sure we will find you don't have a whole lot of room to talk.
You may have that big fancy webcam Earl, but you're still not a travel agent. And for a guy who is probably old enough to be my dad, you should know better than to put forth the kinds of immature attacks that you have. Clearly you are passionate about what you do, but you're not ever going to get the kind of respect you seem to think you are entitled to this way.
Travel Temptress said...
ReplyDelete"Earl,
Unless you have the IATA number of the persons who were arrested, I would assume they were a YTB agent. Since YTBers are claiming to be travel agents, it just as easily could have been one of you rather than one of us that committed the crimes."
Oh Puuulease TT, you do know what it means to assume, don't you?
Most of those news reports were about the good old B&M Felony Travel agents. Yes sir TT, one of yours, not YTB.
Hey, that's a good one, "Felony Travel Company...What's in YOUR Wallet?" However I think "Rogue Travel" has a nice ring to it!
Felony
ReplyDeleteTravel
Company
Hmm...FTC..now there is a word that will strike fear into a MLMer
That's exactly the point that I was trying to make.
ReplyDeleteEarl keeps posting criminal activity on the part of travel agents and insisting that it is a brick and mortar agent that's behind it. Unless you have the IATA number, there is no way to know if it was a real agent or a YTBer. So, unless Earl can rule out that it wasn't a YTBer, he may just be making an ass out of himself.
I would guess that since YTB says in their recruiting materials that it doesn't matter if you came from Yale or Jail, that greatly increases the likelyhood that it was an mlmer that committed the crime. But until we have the IATA of the offender there is no way to prove who did it, and it's crappy for Earl to insist that it was a real travel agent who did it, without any proof. I sure as heck wouldn't have posted something like that without first making sure that the mess wasn't in my own backyard.
Than again you wouldn't be posting, those cheap looking videos like he did either. With the fake graphs in the back.
ReplyDeleteThe funny thing, this isn't even Earls business its, his girlfriends, or whatever the hell he calls her. Why is he making and stating the facts when he isn't even part of the business in the first place?
I know...hes a nutcase.
Can anyone answer me a quick question?
ReplyDeleteWhere is EAB making those videos from? Didn't he say some ranch in Texas? Am I right?
No, EAB is posting from some farm in CA. If he was from TX, I'd say he was Big Hat, No Cattle. Being from CA, he's just another Fruit and Nut.
ReplyDelete"Unless you have the IATA number of the persons who were arrested, I would assume they were a YTB agent."
ReplyDeleteReally, with the media sights focused on YTB, don't you think "YTB" or "Online Travel Agent" would be in the headline, or at least mentioned in the report? Also, how does one go about getting the IATA# of a TA that was arrested?
That again, is exactly the point. Since there is no way of knowing which side of the fence the offender came from, it could have been a traditional agent or an mlmer. However, Earl keeps posting them and isisting that it was a traditional agent, despite the fact that he has no proof.
ReplyDeleteI followed up on a couple of those posts and you can't tell if it's either. I think it's likely that some could be neither...not mlm or traditional. One sounded like an outright scamming con man...not any kind of travel agent at all.
ReplyDeleteBut the whole topic is pointless anyway...it's just changing the subject....
And I meant the topic of random travel agents...not an article on YTB...
ReplyDelete