Thursday, December 20, 2007

What Is A Card Mill?


Back on October 17th, a white paper was created at ASTA defining a card mill. Certainly this was in response to the announcement by Royal Caribbean International to drop several agencies, and ASTA's support of the move.

What I find interesting, is that this white paper has not materially changed over the years. It seems to be the same "MO" for the card mills time and time again. Eventually, they will go away, but in the meantime, they wreak havoc in the industry.

Consumers become alienated and confused. Vendors can feel that they were duped. And of course the traditional travel agents (home based, online, or the "dying" brick and mortar agencies) suffer the brunt of the damage with a huge black eye. The card mill will reinvent and move to another industry and so the cycle begins again. And oh yeah, the ones that buy into the program typically find that the thousands of dollars invested would have earned a higher return playing scratch-off lottery tickets!

YTB has come out with guns blazing with proclamations that they are not a card mill. They are releasing press release after press release highlighting some of the agent-esque things they do--like their 136,000 "agents" selling between 6000 and 6500 cruises a day*, or partnering with a non USTOA listed tour operator for the Summer Olympics, to hanging their hats on a marginally investigated special edition of Travel Weekly where they were listed as a top "agency" in the US. By their actions, one would think that they too are against card mills.

Well, according to ASTA, here are the 5 signs that may indicate a business is really a card mill. So, where does YTB feel it is so different? Maybe ASTA (an organization that is recognized as THE trade association for travel agents worldwide) is just as wrong as Royal Caribbean, Perillo, and IATAN. Maybe Kim Sorensen needs to work a little harder at "legitimizing" this business--and I will say that I feel that the term "legitimizing" is a very interesting choice of words coming from YTB.

  1. The cards expressly represent that the holder is a “travel agent” and imply that the holder is actively engaged on an agency’s behalf in selling travel to the general public. Both representations are false and intended to deceive suppliers. (YTB calls then RTAs upon signing up and CRTAs when they attend a class. TraverUs calls them CTAs. Anyone want to venture a guess as to what the "TA" in the abbreviations mean? Would anyone like to guess if the abbreviation is spelled out on a the credential card?)
  2. Ads promise glamour and the high life at a bargain, and the chance to make money with little effort. (Has anyone seen an ad inviting you to "Travel Like An Insider" or offering lucrative discounts? Has anyone heard the pitch "For $50 a month, you just point people to your website and earn 60% commission off of their travels. You can earn money while you sleep!"? Heck, Travel Weekly even ran a news story on an agency that was trying to offer this to its clients--mycruisebookings.com. )
  3. Card mills’ promotional literature is replete with references to cards or cardholders” status as being “official,” “certified,” “accredited,” “endorsed” and/or “approved,” falsely implying that persons who purchase the cards automatically enjoy good standing with industry accrediting bodies or with suppliers generally. (OK, the gig is up, CRTA=CERTIFIED Referring Travel Agent, CTA=CERTIFIED Travel Agent--as opposed to The Travel Institute's industry recognized CTA)
  4. Card mills fail to disclose, or fail to disclose in a prominent manner, that suppliers such as airlines and some large hotel chains will not honor the card at all if presented in support of a request for agent discounts. (Has anyone attended a presentation? While it may be in small writing in the back office, the message is loud and clear that the suppliers are all supporting the program. A presentation I attended even displayed the RCCL and Celebrity logos--and this was two weeks ago.)
  5. Card mills may falsely promise to supply “training materials” and agent “support services” that will adequately equip the purchaser to function as a travel agent. (While some MLMs may offer these, it is typically at a substantial additional cost that may or may not be disclosed. The "training" in many cases is not terribly useful in that it is more product presentation from specific vendors and not about the business of selling travel. And in most cases, it is utilized as a stepping stone to a legitimate credential in the form of a CLIA card. The training is usually not required and is attended by a vast minority of the people in the program.)
So, TraverUs, YTB, GTI, et al---can any of these be refuted? In a prior post I was lambasted for saying "it it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...well it must be a duck". So, I will say it again....it looks like a mill, smalls like a mill, operates like a mill....must be a mill!

Maybe the next post will take a look at the damage it does to the consumer.

*Apparently we are still not sure of the total nearly two months after the event. One press release indicated 13,000 passengers, but in a release yesterday, Scott Tomer claimed it was 12,000 passengers. But if you ask some RTAs, they might claim it was 45,000 cruises sold, or even $15 million dollars. I am not sure we will ever know, but for now I will go with the official "guess" from YTB and say it is between 12,000 and 13,000 PASSENGERS that either bought certificates or a cruise which will equal about 6000 cruises for the sales team of 136,000.

40 comments:

  1. I defense, I proclaim that WE SELl TRAVEL!

    Those who hurt the industry with a "card mill" card don't. They don't even have a website to where people can book travel. They get these cards to pose as Travel agents.

    At YTB, ONLY the RTAs get RTA cards. The marketing REPs don't. Why? Well, the RTAs sell travel. They have a travel website. They have agent only phone numbers to contact the suppliers directly. Ther are dealing with clients directly because they want to keep those clients.

    YTB pays their RTAs MORE THAN HALF of the commissions paid to YTB.
    YTB is staying compliant with the FTC regulations.

    Because the consumer IS receiving exactly what they pay for and the YTB RTAs ARE getting paid what they are told they will get paid...

    YTB IS A LIGITIMITE BUSINESS!!!
    YTB s almos a 7 year old company! If there was anything shady about YTB, it would hyave been gone within the first 2 years. We're still here, and will continue to be for a long time.

    When Super Wal-Marts began to pop up in towns, they faced much opposition. What did that do? Absolutely nothing that would hurt Wal-Mart! Wal-Mart continues to build and continues to be the largest U.S retailer.

    Now, John said that someone said YTB is #1 according to Travel Weekly. Where was that stated? I read a Travel Weekly article that stated YTB is #35 worldwide and #11 in Leisure Travel. Maybe he got cross-eyed and saw the 11 as a 1... or maybe the 1 key failed to register twice. Who knows, but I will give John the benefit of the doubt here and assume that he meant to type "11".

    Now, to be #35 and #11 in travel... doesn't a company have to... well... sell travel?

    It is aparent that YTB DOES SELL TRAVEL!!!

    Also, in xcase you haven't heard it before... YTB is here to stay!

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  2. I never said that someone told me YTB was #1. I said they were a top agency and that was sheer laziness--I did not want to go look up the actual ranking.

    As for selling travel, yes you do. So does GTI, TraverUs and the rest. No one has ever denied that. But let me ask you a simple yes or no question....

    If I go online and pake my payment of $499.90 representing my RTA investment on the website and my first month's fee right now. Assume my site is up and running by the end of the day, but I have not sold any travel. I submit my photo and "application form" to YTB HQ. Will I be issued RTA credentials?

    This is not a trick question and I am looking for a yes or no answer.

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  3. Yes, you will get a credential. Starting January 1, you won't until after you meet the requirements. You will however not be able to take certification training until the following year... of which you will have needed to earn your credentials first. NO credentials... NO CRTA... NO CLIA... NO FAM trips! This sounds fair to me. Those who don't work the business seriously, won't earn anything. Those who do... will!

    Having the card alone doesn't allow an RTA to take FAM trips. CRTA opend up a few... and very few Fam trips to them. By payig for and passing CLIA courses... more FAM trip doors open up to the RTA. So, you see, a YTB RTA isn't getting something for nothing. They have to work for it.

    I noticed another travel company... can't remember the name, but they said that all CREDENTIALS AND COURSES ARE free. I think they are the ones who should be watched.

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  4. Thanks for your honesty. So for now, I can get credentials for merely paying the fee.

    It is laudable that YTB is requiring additional training after the 1st of the year. It is a step in the right direction. Yet I also think the damage has already been done because of everyone that is now "grandfathered" into the old system. I suspect that recruiting levels will go down next year substantially--as a result of already milking the market and partially due to the new requirement.

    I am aware that you are serious about travel. The fact is that most are not. What is your best guess? You have 136,000 credentialled RTAs out there right now roaming the street. How many are actively promoting travel? I am going to guess between 10% and 15%.

    I notice that 4 months have passed since YTB put up their RTA earnings page. Is this an oversight, or perhaps it is not something that they are anxious to share?

    Can you tell me how many RTAs had activity in terms of sales over $1000 in the past year? I say $1000 to somewhat discount the personal travel although it could be larger.

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  5. John said, "You have 136,000 credentialled RTAs out there right now roaming the street."

    Wrong! Try again.

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  6. Ummm there are zero RTAs? hahaha

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  7. If anyone hasn't been watching YTBs, "stock" is tanking once again. I knew it couldn't sustain the 1.20ish level it was at after dropping below a zero. The "stock" is bottoming out. You can't recover on crap. Crap is still crap.

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  8. John, you're welcome.

    I wish I could give a percentage or a figure on what you ask, but alas, I don't work in the YTB HQ. Aside from myself and those in my downline, I don't know who is selling what and how much. I can tell you that most in my downline are doing a great job at seling travel. There are even ones who sell more cruises than me, but that could just be because they are in an area where more people go on cruises. I have 9 clients whom I personally know (who are not in YTB) who have at least booked a cruise from me. 4 of them have booked more than 1. I am also currently working with 2 new clients on cruises. I have also attracted some businesses who fly and/or book hotels. It's al about how I present myself to my clients... and I always do what I can to be involved in their trip planning by either going to their homes/businesses and showing them various rates, setting appointments to come to my home to show them, or printing out their selections (which reminds me that I have to get a new ink cartrige LOL). I also call the vendors directly and close a sale in ample time. I've actually been commended by suppliers I have talked with about my professionalism. Even at my old job, I have always been professional with my clients. That's just the type of person I am.

    I also believe that the so calle "rogue" agents are being weeded out. I'll admit that I had 3 people drop out from my downline because of the loss of IATAN. I get e-mail confirmation of this. These were agents who have done next to nothing, so they won't be missed.

    YTB is taking many strides to prove themselves int he industry, and I believe with the new regulations... YTB will continue to attract credible people for the organization. The ones who aren't credible... won't join, because they will realize that it is nOT the get rich quick scheme they though it would be. It took a lot of hard work to get me to where I am, and I have earned every single check that comes to me in the mail. If you work YTB as a true business, you will be sucessful.

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  9. As far as stock goes, any company that publicly trades onthe open market is at the mercy of the market. Look at Dow Jones. They gain and lose thousands daily. When they lose stocks, does that mean they are a bad company? NO.

    There are many great companies with not so hot stocks.

    There are also ompanies out there with private stocks which do far better than those which are publicly traded.

    Don't judge a book by the cover. You have to open it to see what's inside.

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  10. The latest number of RTAs in YTB is almost 140,000. The latest figure I saw was just over 138,000 and that was last week.

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  11. It is unusual for a stock to drop instead of peak when a 200% increase in earnings is announced, but I admit it's not unheard of. Wall St. can be a funny place especially in Pinkyland. I don't know what the Street makes of YTBLA but they aren't rewarding the investors.

    YTB has a new press release out today.

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  12. BTW, Dow Jones is a stock index average consisting of 30 of the largest and most widely held US public companies.

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  13. YTB International Ends 2007 on High Note

    December 20, 2007: 08:30 AM EST

    WOOD RIVER, Ill., Dec. 20 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- YTB International, Inc. ('YTB' or the 'Company'), a leading provider of Internet-based travel booking services for travel agencies and home-based independent representatives in the United States, is calling 2007 its best year ever, and is looking forward to continued success in 2008.

    "Thanks to the hard work and commitment of our RTAs, 2007 has been a record-breaking year for YTB. We saw our first consecutive quarters of profitability with record revenue and net income. In addition, we more than doubled the size of our RTA network to more than 135,000 RTAs, reaching every state in the U.S. and Puerto Rico," said Scott Tomer, chief executive officer of YTB International. "We plan to build on this foundation in 2008 by expanding into Canada, offering fantastic tour packages for the Beijing Olympics, and continuing to improve our training programs and transactional systems, as well as many other new initiatives and opportunities."


    Some of the company's highlights for the year include the following:

    -- Increasing total revenue for the nine months ended September 30, 2007
    by 207.6% to $95.9 million, compared to $31.2 million for the same
    period last year;
    -- Being named by Travel Weekly as one of the top eleven leisure travel
    agencies and one of the 35 largest travel agencies overall for 2006;
    -- Having YTB International President, J. Kim Sorensen, named by Travel
    Weekly as one of the 33 most influential people in the travel industry;
    -- Holding a record-setting cruise "sail-a-thon," booking more than 12,000
    passengers in less than 24 hours;
    -- Rolling out "YTB E-Campus," designed by Dr. Marc Mancini, one of the
    travel industry's most highly respected speakers, educators and
    consultants;
    -- Adding 93 new YTB Sales Directors between January 1, 2007 and December
    17, 2007; and,
    -- Exceeding $225 million in travel sales for 2006 and already more than
    doubling that figure for 2007.


    "This has been a great year for YTB," continued Tomer. "We've put a fantastic team in place from our executive staff to legal and communications partners, and, of course, our representatives in the field, who are really the heart and soul of YTB and the new face of travel on the Internet."

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  14. I suspect that recruiting levels will go down next year substantially--as a result of already milking the market and partially due to the new requirement.
    John,

    Part of the reason we are making this a new requirement Nation wide is because of what has happened in California.

    These same requirements were put in place due to new legislation that went into effect in January of 07. It’s my understanding that the ASTA had some big backing in this legislation.

    Since these new requirements went into place, California has gone from a virtually nothing (less than 1000) to 20K plus within the last year.

    From my understanding, (from what I hear, nothing documented) California is also leading the country in regards to actually travel sales.

    In regards to the RTA commissions, I wish they would update the report. Based on what we have been told, travel commission doubled from $700K to over $1.4 Million this summer.

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  15. "BTW, Dow Jones is a stock index average consisting of 30 of the largest and most widely held US public companies."

    Now I was about to post something similar when you beat me to it - but to make it clearer, Proud, the DOW is an index that measures the Stock Exchange overall - it is NOT a stock. Dow owns such giants as the Wall Street Journal......

    And yes, people do get flipped out when the Dow drops appreciably ...

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  16. Proud to be YTB and Travel Pro~You may indeed actually sell travel.I don't understand why you associate yourself with a company that everyone in the industry hates, makes fun of and has a rotten reputation. If you really want to sell travel go independent and "hire" your down line as agents. You can defend YTB until the cows come home but it isn't going to change the fact they are a pariah in the travel industry and not at all liked.

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  17. They are blinded by the money to be made in the downline/residuals.

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  18. There are a lot of different ways to get into the travel industry, so I guess I can't fault someone for getting into with YTB. However I can't understand why if someone is really serious about being in the travel industry, why they would remain with YTB, especially given the fact that they have had their IATA yanked. If you had enough sales you could get your own IATA, and keep 100% of your commissions, and operate under your own company name rather than the name of a company with such a questionable reputation.

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  19. TT, what you are saying has been repeated over and over. Don't you and yours have anything else of value to say? SAMEOLDSAMEOLD

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  20. Anonymous said...
    TT, what you are saying has been repeated over and over. Don't you and yours have anything else of value to say? SAMEOLDSAMEOLD


    Maybe it keeps being said over and over again is because it's true. Why don't one of you answer the question?

    ReplyDelete
  21. Ainsworth said...
    Anonymous said...
    TT, what you are saying has been repeated over and over. Don't you and yours have anything else of value to say? SAMEOLDSAMEOLD


    Maybe it keeps being said over and over again is because it's true. Why don't one of you answer the question?

    December 20, 2007 4:38 PM

    Can't you stop saying - and wishing - that real Travel Agents are afraid of competition from you? Not true, but you all keep up with assinine line...

    we don't like the image you present.

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  22. Ainsworth said..."Maybe it keeps being said over and over again is because it's true."

    Ains, you must be one of those Chicken Little followers, who once cried, "The sky is falling, the sky is falling!!"

    ReplyDelete
  23. Not me, anonymous, I know how to roll with the flow. I never had any issues with anything, unlike YTB who is having issues with selling a major supplier, in an outright fashion. I don't have to hide behind someone else to sell RCCL like they do.

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  24. Ains, you didn't grasp the parity. Think about it.

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  25. Anonymous said:

    "Ainsworth said..."Maybe it keeps being said over and over again is because it's true."

    Ains, you must be one of those Chicken Little followers, who once cried, "The sky is falling, the sky is falling!!"

    We keep saying it over and over again because you either don't get it or refuse to believe it. Do you know how to read? If you do I will repeat it again hoping maybe you will get it through that thick skull of yours. YTB is a card mill/mlm NOT a travel agency. YTB gets a bad rap for good reason. They are not in the travel business to sell travel. The few that are selling travel can make more money by either going on their own or finding a respectable host with a better commission split who doesn't nickel and dime them. And, travel agents are NOT AFRAID OF YTB!!! We are pissed off that the majority of your RTA's act like imbeciles at trade shows and pursue customers at events where solicitation is frowned upon ie trade shows and standing in the aisle at bridal shows without paying for booth space. We are pissed that the majority of the YTB RTA's are only in it for the perks, freebies and fam trips. We are pissed YTB does not police rogue agents shooting their mouths off and saying we are cry babies and all the other obnoxious crap you spew at us. We are pissed because the majority of YTB RTA's don't understand nor want to learn the travel business. We are pissed that the majority of YTB RTA's give travel agents a bad name. Do you get it now?

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  26. Fed Up with YTB said...
    "Do you get it now?"

    Yep. Same crap...different day.

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  27. What you don't get is that they are not the majority, but the minority of RTAs (actually, Reps). You don't hear any stories about RTAs that are doing all the right things (selling travel, destination and supplier training and certification, etc.), because there's no point in bashing them. It's the few that act like the east end of a horse headed west that get the blogpress. And quite honestly, from my observations, most RTA's are not in it for the perks and discounts, but for the Rep commissions and benefits.

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  28. The travel industry is far too complex to have all these un-trained and under-trained RTAs floating around. We are seeing it with airline personnel who don't know the job well enough to know how to handle complex situations or problems when they arise. I know, I worked for a major carrier for 11 years. I've also worked for a tour operator and now own my own home-based travel agency (with my TRUE/IATA number). I have vast experience in the industry and feel that the MLM model has no business in the travel industry. TRAINING SHOULD BE A REQUIREMENT before even trying to handle your first booking. And I don't mean product training. I mean the standards like airport city codes, geography, protocol in calling and working with suppliers, learning how to qualify your clients, passport issues, airline fare rules (and being able to understand and clarify them), insurance policies, cancellation procedures, etc.

    Supplier's travel agent phone numbers (not the consumer number) should never be called by someone who has not had the above training. I have worked both sides of those phone calls (tour operator and airline vs. travel agent).

    Just because the internet has made it EASY to actually BOOK travel online, doesn't mean that it's an EASY industry to work in. I would like to ask all the RTAs and REPs out there how you've handle any travel issues from your clients. Things are always happening in this industry and you WILL have issues to deal with PERSONALLY. Not a website, and NOT BY TELLING YOUR CLIENT TO CALL THE SUPPLIER. That is YOUR JOB, the RTA.......or are you a "travel agent".

    Where are your RTA phone numbers and email addresses on the RTA's travel website?

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  29. Also, the big-wigs and YTB have ZERO travel industry experience. Why aren't RTAs and REPs concerned about this?

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  30. Anonymous said...
    Ains, you didn't grasp the parity. Think about it.


    No, anonymous, I got it. I'm just above word play, unlike you and a large portion of your contingent. I'm not afraid to say what I mean, and to use a real name.

    ReplyDelete
  31. Trad TA, their way of handling issues that come up with a clients travel is to either tell the client to call the vendor directly, or they call the vendor and have the vendor fix it. A YTB, or any MLM "agent" for that matter, wouldn't have a clue as to how to sign into a GDS and do a ticket exchange, or void, or work a sked chx to save their life. They just pass the buck. That's the whole point, most of them don't want to have to do anything for their commissions, they just want to sit back and let the clients do all the work....booking it online, dealing with the vendors if a problem arises, etc.

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  32. watch us grow said it is the minority causing all the problems. Sorry, I don't buy that for a minute. I have been to trade shows and other industry events and have seen first hand how your "minority" acts. And believe me it is alot of the RTA's. I have been on cruises and fams and seen how the "minority" acted. Again, not a small number.

    The problem is there are so many RTA's untrained, uneducated with questionable backgrounds that you can't control em. Does YTB do a basic background check on RTA's when they sign on to the program? There is one RTA in my city who has a criminal background for fraud and multiple aliases. Doesn't look like anyone investigated his background did they? YTB recruits anyone regardless of their credit history and jail time.

    And to those that actually sell some travel and not a downline what happens when your clients have a problem? Do you send them to the vendor or do you personally take care of it? Do you take calls all hours of the day and night like I do? Right now it is almost 11 pm and I just answered and talked to a client who had a question about an upcoming trip. Would you do that? Or let the call go to voice mail? I had another client call me at 3 am with a problem I took care of. Would you have answered that call? Anyone can direct anyone to a website. Heck my kids can do that. It's the servicing of the customer and taking care of the customer that counts and you can't do either. And you have the gall to call yourselves travel agents.

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  33. TO ALL MY TRAVEL AGENT FRIENDS

    Hello,

    If you have taken an interest in hiring travel agents and are ready to build a travel agency, I have some information which I hope will be helpful in making your decision and, hopefully, save you some money as well. There are many different architectural travel agency designs available, depending on your needs. There are also a lot of choices for materials which can be used to build them. PVC pipes, tarps, converted old campers, and the list goes on. Wood (not brick or mortar) is the most commonly used material for building a travel agency. Depending on the size of the structure you're planning to build, it can get expensive to buy new lumber. I've read that the average amount of money spent for travel agency building materials is around $500,000. I did not want to spend this much money and began thinking of different ways to cut costs but still have a functional, yet lovely agency...without spending $500,000!

    After doing some research, I found some second hand stores where I could get used lumber, which was a fraction of what it would cost new. These types of stores basically get donated wood from people who are tearing down old houses, buildings etc. and are sprouting up across the U.S. These materials may be older, have a few nails or cracks etc., but are still very functional. I live in the Portland, Oregon area and the store I went to is called "The Rebuilding Center." After talking to some of the staff there, I was told that some folks have purchased supplies for travel agency’s there. There are even used appliances, old tubs and sinks, light fixtures, hardware, and everything you'll need for building your travel agency. Just be prepared to pull out some nails and be creative in how you construct it since most of the wood will simply not come in the standard sizes you'll find in the store. However, I was able to grab a few full sheets of plywood and some longer 2x4 to get by nicely. I even found some great used siding and some leftover new shingles! I would recommend checking online or in the phone book for used or recycled lumber in your area.

    Once you've got an idea of where to get your supplies, it's time to determine what type of plan to use for your agency. There are an endless number of designs available. You can find a plethora of designs from your local building contractor, and either pay for the building plans or design your own creation. There are many things to consider when planning for your agency design. Some of these factors include geographical location, the number of travel agents you're planning to employ, whether you live in an urban or rural setting etc. If you want just a few agents, perhaps a small, portable "agent tractor," will suit your needs. If you've got more acreage, perhaps you'll want a larger structure. Regardless of the size, I would strongly recommend making it a bit bigger than you need since, if you're like me, you'll want to employ more agents each year as your business grows.

    Please visit our web site below for just few examples of what your new travel agency could look like.

    To Your Success!

    Harvey Feltmore
    President & CEO
    Carlson-Wagontrain Travel, Inc.

    Name

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  34. Sorry, just click on the word, "Name" above this post.

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  35. MB on the recruitment end, the answer is no. They are independent "business people" and two of the favorite recruiting lines I have heard more than once are:

    It doesn't matter if you went to Penn State or the State Penn

    and

    Yale or Jail, you are welcome here.

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  36. Regarding the post above. This was from Tom Coleman and I would not recommend clicking on any of the links.

    I have assumed a no moderation policy on the comments and it will not change. Unfortunately I cannot edit them either.

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  37. Tom,
    How old are you?
    Oh, old enough to be my dad?
    And you actually posted that?
    Now there's a really professional mlmer. Where can I sign up?

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  38. Ah, Tom Coleman. He so desperatly wants to be part of the travel industry, but no one will have him.

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  39. Why hasn't and REP or RTA answered my questions?

    How do you handle customer issues/problems?

    Why are you not concerned that the top-brass at YTB has ZERO travel industry experience? Does anybody in there headquarters have any?

    And here's another question for you : What type of training does YTB offers (besides product or CLIA training)?

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  40. So, is the case solved.....YTB is a card mill per the ASTA definition? Seems that way!

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