Wednesday, February 13, 2008

To Blindly Go Where Instructed


Let's talk about being blind to reality for a minute. To those in the MLM game, are you getting all the commission your company says you are entitled to receive? Do you know what I am talking about?

I am talking about overrides. They are a staple of profitability for most agencies. My question is does your company have any override agreements with the vendors? I would imagine so since the volume they do as a "host" is significant for sure.

These revenues are not discussed in two (TraverUs and YTB) agreements I have seen, and with that "ommission", I would think that the "agents" are indeed entitled. My guess is that they are NOT distributed at all and just pocketed by the company. A question that needs to be asked of your "host" is why are your overrides not being passed along to the people that earned them? In a traditional host or franchise model, the host or franchise receives the override and then pays the individual agency a percentage according to their agreement. I know one franchise might retain 30% of the override and pass the rest along. But make no mistake, these overrides are significant and they cover all travel types--air, car, hotel, cruise, tour, and yes even non-commissionable air bookings from the GDS.*

I did an informal survey of 142 professional travel agents on overrides and this is what I found out:

  • 47% of them receive an override from one or more airline
  • 58% of them receive an override on one or more cruise lines
  • 40% of them receive an override on one or more tour operators
  • 58% of them received overrides between 4% and 8%
  • 12% of them reported that their consortium/franchise/host does not share the override

So, let's look at this from a YTB angle. Let's also look at this as if NCFs did not exist and the entire cruise fare is commissionable.

If YTB can sell $150M of Carnival Cruise Lines, they would receive 16% commission on that or $24M. Of that, 60% is doled out to the RTAs or $14.4M.

I am confident that an organization that can sell $150M for Carnival would be the beneficiary of a substantial override. I might venture to say it is as high as 10%, but let's call it 8% to keep within the majority of our survey. That means that YTB is receiving an additional $12M in commission for your hard work. At 60% the RTA should be receiving $7.2M.

Now at 150,000 RTAs, that is only $48 a year additional, but we already know that close to 95% of the RTAs do not sell. So if we take that $7.2M and divide it into the 14K RTAs that DO sell, it seems that that is an additional $515 each! This amounts to almost what the average RTA earns in travel commissions in a year--on one vendor!

So--are you guys getting it? Maybe someone ought to ask that questions because it is NOT addressed in the agreements and it technically IS commission and it is as a result of your efforts.

But on second thought..nah. YTB would never pull the wool over your eyes!

*When I mention air, I am talking about an airline paying an override for market share. All major US carriers and most International ones offer back end overrides ranging from 5% to 10%. Then I talk about non-commissionable airline sales, I am talking GDS segment fees and overrides. When an airline ticket is booked, whoever does the booking will earn somewhere between .25 and $1.00. If they have enough bookings in a period, the bonuses can be significant. I am wondering with the Travelocity agreement if they (Travelocity) are sharing those revenues with YTB since there are so many air bookings.

33 comments:

  1. John;

    Yes, there are considerable overrides and bonuses to those who produce Travel Sales in YTB for helping others achieve certain levels.

    If I could just help you produce $5000 in YTB, it would be worth over $6000 in overrides and bonuses for me.

    Why do you think I'm working so hard to get you to drink the Kool-Aid?! ;-P

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  2. I don't think the average YTBer has a clue what an override is and since no one will tell them they don't worry about it. They are far happier with their heads in the sand so just leave them alone and don't confuse the issue.

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  3. "If I could just help you produce $5000 in YTB, it would be worth over $6000 in overrides and bonuses for me."

    Now Doug, you are a pretty smart guy - can you please explain how the above-note scenario could possibly sustain itself over a long period (say a couple of years) and not implode?

    CTA in MD (something has changed in the "identity" fields)....

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  4. I am not talking recruiting overrides and the 10% override on commissions that YTB offers.

    I am talking overrides that are offered by ALL suppliers for volume, loyalty, and market share.

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  5. CTA;

    Since you brought up this “can’t sustain itself” myth, maybe you could supply just one example of a Network Marketing company that’s has “imploded” on itself because it ran out of recruits?

    All I need is one, and I’m not talking about being a “mathematical fact”, I’m talking about a real live example. I did a post a week or so ago that addressed this notion and I’ve asked and asked and asked on many other occasions.

    Yet not one person has been able to come up with even one company that this has happened too. Avon’s been around in one form or another for 122 years and hasn’t run out of people. 102 years for Fuller Brush, yet still going. 74 years for Nutrilite, 52 years for Shaklee, and 44 years for Mary Kay, when Avon had a 62 year head start going after the same group. (Just women!)

    YTB is 7 years old, and we have 303,000,000 people left here is the US, and we just opened up in Canada on Friday.

    When do you think we should start to worry about this?

    John,

    Even without the 10% override, I'll still get $5500 for helping you.

    I have grape, cherry, and lemon lime. ;-P

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  6. Forget about the main implosion myth for now - explain this:

    "You help me produce $5000 in YTB - and then you earn $6000."

    Clarify "produce $5000 in YTB" - is that travel sales, recruitment money, or both?

    Maybe that clarification will help me see why they turn around and give you $6000.

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  7. In other words, Doug, you helped someone bring in $5k to YTB, and then YTB turns around and gives you $6k, putting them at a $1k deficit.

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  8. It seems that the overrides of which you speak funds the 10%, $1,000 and $5,000 payouts to the Power Team leaders. One RTAs bookings in and of itself would not likely warrant an override, but YTBs volume as a whole would, and YTB rewards the leaders, the business builders, with the overrides and bonuses.

    If, as you claim, this part of the compensation is not in any of the compensation documents, then one wonders why YTB started making these payments in the first place?

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  9. Travelpro said, "Yet not one person has been able to come up with even one company that this has happened too."

    How about Fund America? See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fund_America

    How about GMT 101? See http://www.mlmwatchdog.com/RC_2GMT101.html

    How about 5 Star Gifting? See http://www.mlmwatchdog.com/RC_5StarGifting.html

    How about 5 Star Auto (gee, a common name)? See http://www.mlmwatchdog.com/RC_FREECars.html

    From the Alt.business.multi-level FAQ:
    MagNet International. South Florida, FL, USA. Began marketing Sept. 1991
    (Updated 10/93). Number of representatives and sales unknown.
    Products: Subscriptions to 400 popular consumer magazines at guaranteed lowest prices (will match any lower advertised price).
    Accepts publisher's renewal notices at MagNet price.
    >> No membership/distributor fee. No inventory. No deliveries. No collections.
    >> No bookkeeping. No monthly purchases required. No sales quotas. No product
    >> knowledge needed. No changing peoples' buying habits. Established market:
    >> 540million subscriptions bought/yr. Ongoing renewal income, year after year.

    No citations for MagNet found on the internet at all now.

    From http://mlmindia.rediffblogs.com/ which is a site about MLM compaines in India, "There are more than 1000 failed MLM companies, few of the names are mentioned here -
    1- SkyBiz
    2- Cossets
    3- Net4Marketing
    4- FIC
    5- Prime Gold
    6- Oromine
    7- Get 3 Get Free
    8- REMO
    9- Wise Life
    10- TDS Network
    11- My Lexxus Personal Care International"

    Now, to top this all off, here is a link to dead MLM companies and the reasons (if known) as to why they died. Keep scrolling, its a long page.

    Finally, see this article for why MLM is such a bad deal in general - http://www.vandruff.com/mlm.html

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  10. I left out the last link for dead MLM companies by accident. That link is http://www.npros.com/dead.asp

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  11. What about the failed MLM's that Tom belonged to? You know, the ones where he made millions and then they just disappeared and left him in a trailer park in Portal? Scam.com seems to be filled with failed mlms.

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  12. None of the MLMs listed failed because there was no one left to recruit (which was the original challenge). They failed because they didn't offer a real product or service, or for an illegality.

    btw - MLMs still have a long way to go to match failed B&M Agencies.

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  13. Vacationstop;

    Maybe you didn’t understand the question.

    Name one MLM that has run out of people, or that imploded on themselves.

    Fund America Fund America, Inc. was shut down through a cease-and-desist order, not by running out of people.
    GMT 101 also shut down by the AG in Florida before it ran out of people.
    5 Star is a gifting program not MLM. (It’s also illegal.)
    Free Auto violated the biz opp laws of about 20 states

    All your examples are by outside forces, mainly Government crackdowns. Others may have failed because of poor management or funding by management.

    But NONE of your examples produce the popular myth that Network Marketing companies will eventually run out of people to sell to.

    Sorry.

    To answer the other question, I help any of you produce $5000 in Travel Sales I get $5500 in bonus money from YTB Travel Network, not YourTravelBiz.com. I just checked my 1099.

    And not one has go recruit a single person into the mix.

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  14. Point taken Doug. Can we agree that many (or most) operate on a fine line of legality and typically will cross that line at one time and fail?

    However, if allowed to continue, without continual oversight and investigation, there will soon be no people to sign up. There is a finite population of legal adults. A percentage will bite and a percentage will not. Of the ones that bite, a large percentage will fail and not bite again. A smaller percentage will fail and continue to bit with the assumption that the next worm dangling from the top of the ocean will not have a hook in it. And a smaller still percentage (like .003%) will stand a chance of success.

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  15. "I help any of you produce $5000 in Travel Sales I get $5500 in bonus money from YTB Travel Network"

    Even better, Doug.

    You help me produce $5000 in travel sales, which (at 10%) produces $500 in travel commissions. $300 goes to me, $200 goes to YTB.

    YTB gives you a bonus of $5500 - if my sales produced $200 in income to YTB, where's the other $5300 coming from?

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  16. Clarify "produce $5000 in YTB" - is that travel sales, recruitment money, or both?


    This has nothing to do with recruitment money paid by YOUR TRAVEL BIZ. That's seperate. I'll help explain this.

    The day you become an RTA..Pay $499.90, (One Time Only Charge..449.95 + $49.95..monthly service charge) "YTB Travel Network" Will Pay You 60% Travel Commissions. (paid by travel vendors, all other vendors & other services on our booking engine Or by submiting a Commission Claim Form for travel booked outside your booking engine)

    An RTA must become a Certified RTA & A Power Team Leader to receive the 10% Travel Commissions Override Paid by YTB Travel Network"(from 100% paid to YTB by vendors) on everyone..anyone in Your Power Team.

    You don't have to be a Power Team Leader, but Must Be A "Certified RTA" to receive the $500.00 & $5,000 = $5,500 Total Commission Bonus which is Paid by "YTB Travel Network.

    So If an RTA You directly bring in the business Earns $1,000 In Travel Commissions their first 12 months in the business, You Earn A $500 Travel Commission Bonus & if they Earn $5,000 their first 12 months in the business, You Earn A $5,000 Commission Bonus + The $500 Bonus Totaling $5,500 & if they are also in your Power Team You Earn the 10% Override..Over $500.00
    All Paid By "YTB Travel Network"

    Here's an example to help everyone see this clearly:

    I'm A Certified RTA Power Team Leader & I brought you in the business & "YTB Travel Network" Was "Paid $8,333.50 In Travel Commissions' From Travel You Booked your first 12 months in the business.

    Paid By Vendors: $8,333.50
    You Earn 60% = $5,000.00

    I Earn 10% Override = $833.35
    Commission Bonuses = $5,500.00
    Total Commissions = $6,333.35

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  17. I see that it works with COMMISSIONS - but Doug specifically said, and bolded - TRAVEL SALES.

    So thats somewhere in the area of $84k in SALES to give you that commission level.

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  18. Forgive me Anonymous, my fault on that one.

    You are correct that that Travel Sales would be around $84K, producing Travel Commissions of $5000 to the RTA and $6333.35 to the Power Team Leader.

    Sorry 'bout that.

    "However, if allowed to continue, without continual oversight and investigation, there will soon be no people to sign up."

    John;

    I understand the thinking; I understand that "mathematically" it works out that way. I've had the SEC Pyramid thrown up in my face far too many times to even count.

    I also understand the HUGE fear everyone has about this “implosion”.

    Yet, not one example of it coming to fruition.

    Here’s a long tall glass of Kool-Aid for all of you. You know what FEAR stands for?

    False Evidence Appearing Real.

    There are 330,000,0000 American’s who are not involved with YTB. YTB just opened in Canada last Friday along with several Caribbean Island. UK, and the rest of Europe on the way.

    Again, I’ve got to ask…at what point do you (or anyone) think I should be concerned about running out of people?

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  19. Paid By Vendors: $8,333.50
    You Earn 60% = $5,000.00

    I Earn 10% Override = $833.35
    Commission Bonuses = $5,500.00
    Total Commissions = $6,333.35


    Assume this is a first year deal...I am a PTLeader and one of my RTAs sells the $84K to get all the bonii

    Carnival pays YTB $8333.50
    YTB Pays RTA $5000
    YTB Pays PTLeader $500 for the $1000 in commission bonus.
    YTB Pays PTLeaser $5000 for the $5000 in commissions bonus.
    YTB Pays PTLearder a 10% overide of $500.

    So income= $8333.50
    SO expenses = $11,000

    So where is the additional $2666.50 come from? Does it come from the separate recruiting company? Does it come from the $50 per month that the majority pay and don't earn anything?

    A business cannot sustain itself when expenses exceed income.

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  20. John;

    What's the topic of your post?

    Vendor Overrides, right?

    Besides, as you have pointed out to us many, many times...not everyone does this.

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  21. TravelPro said...
    I understand the thinking; I understand that "mathematically" it works out that way. I've had the SEC Pyramid thrown up in my face far too many times to even count.

    I also understand the HUGE fear everyone has about this “implosion”.

    Yet, not one example of it coming to fruition.


    It never happens because the majority of MLM companies die their deaths from mismanagement, crooked people at the top, and crossing the lines of legality long before they run out of suckers. Yes, there are some that have made it, but the vast majority are not around any longer. The ones that died whatever death far outnumber the ones that are still alive, and that is a fact that no one can deny.

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  22. Not that these comments EVER stay on topic, but the topic was vendor overrides and if YTB was addressing them and sharing them with their RTAs.

    Perhaps asking if the RTAs were aware that they existed. Maybe hoping to see if there might be some of that education you have that is geared to maximizing them.

    The agreement for the RTAs indicates that they are entitled to a percentage of ALL commissions. It does not except any O/R commissions so I would assume they are included.

    Certainly with the size of YTB they are earning hefty overrides on many vendors.

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  23. In other words, change the subject, because you don't have an answer to John's question about expenses exceeding income.

    Typical.

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  24. John said...
    Paid By Vendors: $8,333.50
    You Earn 60% = $5,000.00

    I Earn 10% Override = $833.35
    Commission Bonuses = $5,500.00
    Total Commissions = $6,333.35

    Assume this is a first year deal...I am a PTLeader and one of my RTAs sells the $84K to get all the bonii

    Carnival pays YTB $8333.50
    YTB Pays RTA $5000
    YTB Pays PTLeader $500 for the $1000 in commission bonus.
    YTB Pays PTLeaser $5000 for the $5000 in commissions bonus.
    YTB Pays PTLearder a 10% overide of $500.

    So income= $8333.50
    SO expenses = $11,000

    So where is the additional $2666.50 come from? Does it come from the separate recruiting company? Does it come from the $50 per month that the majority pay and don't earn anything?

    A business cannot sustain itself when expenses exceed income.

    YTB also pays the PTL 10% of the $5,000 commission so that means the expenses are $11,500. Which means the expenses are $3,166 more than income. Where does the $3,166 get covered from?

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  25. Travelpro said, "But NONE of your examples produce the popular myth that Network Marketing companies will eventually run out of people to sell to."

    I'm sorry, but I have to call Bullcrap on this one. Read through some of those, and at some point or another, a lot of them simply closed up shop without a trace. Did you really think any of them would be listed as admiting that they simply ran out of suckers to recruit? Come on, give us more credit than that.

    I also call bullcrap on you getting a $5500 bonus if one of your recruits sells $5000 in travel. There is no way that YTB is going to pay you more than the suppliers pay in commission. According to what has been posted elsewhere, if you are a PowerTeam Leader, you get a 10% override on your downline commission. So, $5000 in sales is about $500 in commissions. Your downline person keeps $300 of it, you get your $50 override (not $5500), and YTB keeps $150. Even I can read the documents that YTB puts out, and can do the math. I'm sorry, but apparently you can't.

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  26. tm:
    You listed the 10% PT override twice -- regardless, there is a deficit because in your scenario the RTA earned exactly $5000 in commission. These $1000 and $5000 bonuses are paid to PTLs if their RTAs earn $1000 and/or $5000 in commissions in their first 12 months. Of course, not all RTAs are doing this, so it is therefore possible to pay the deficit in your example from other commisions YTB retains. If every RTA earned exactly $5k in their first 12 months, as in your example, that could be a problem, and John would be out of business -- and he would be complaining that RTAs sell too much travel!

    A new RTA on our team (only in for a couple of months - no prior TA experience) booked a group on Holland America and earned over $24k. Her PTL will be paid $4k + $500 + $5k = $9500. So Holland America pays $40k, RTA earns $24k, PTL gets $9500 --- YTB keeps $6500.

    btw - if any RTA earns $25,000 in commissions in a 12 month period, they are eligible for the same free Blue Cross/Blue Shield PPO (no pre-existing condition exclusion) that directors enjoy.

    travel stop:
    Yes, many MLMs disappear, and for a plethora of reasons. But until you can give one real example of a compny that closed because there was no one to sell to, that conclusion is bullcrap. Has Amway run out of people to sell to? Avon? Mary Kay? Melaleuca? HerbaLife? Pre-paid Legal? Tupperware? These are among the largest and oldest companies in MLM, and still going strong. When is the last time you were approached by someone from these companies? Possibly never. So if they haven't reached you, they haven't run out of people to sell to, have they?!

    AND you missed the correstion - it's not $5k in sales, it's $5k in commissions.

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  27. Anonymous - First off, the name is The Vacation Stop, not travel stop. By the way, what's you name and why are you hiding?

    Second, As I noted, you are never going to find any MLM that announces, "We're going out of business because we don't have anyone to recruit anymore." They simply close up shop, take the money and run, leaving the suckers behind. So what was asked to be shown is impossible to prove. That doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. It would be like me asking you to prove that you have never run a red light while driving. Perhaps you could prove that you have never been cited, but you can't prove that you've never done it.

    Third, I am quite aware that there are MLM's that have been around a long time. The reason for that is they focus on selling their product, not on recruiting more and more people. YTB, Traverus, World Ventures, and the others, profess that their product is travel sales. In fact, the product is travel websites. Since that product is not a consumable, eventually everyone that wants one has one, and the sales start drying up. All the successful MLM's sell things that are tangible. Some are baskets (Longaberger). Some are kitchen products (Pampered Chef). Some are "health" products (Herbal Life).

    What do all those have in common? Generally, you need more of what they sell. People collect the baskets, and they come out with different ones all the time. Kitchen Gadgets break or wear out and need replacement. The health products are consumed so you need more. Just how many travel websites does the world need?

    If the Travel MLM's would focus on the aspect of selling travel, rather than selling websites and recruiting people, then the vast majority of the people complaining about them would stop. When will that happen? I doubt it ever wiil, because the real money is in recruiting the people and selling websites, not collecting commissions from selling travel.

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  28. If every RTA could earn $5000 a year in commissions, I would have nothing to blog about.

    I would be VERY happy about that as it would show some interest in the industry and I suspect that most of the (take your pick) dinosaurs, old hens, TTAs, whiners, complainers, etc. would embrace that.

    No one denies that they travel pie is big and everyone can have a piece. It is when the "induction" is deceitful and it begins to ruin the reputation of people that have spent lifetimes in the industry that it becomes an issue.

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  29. Anonymous said, "AND you missed the correstion - it's not $5k in sales, it's $5k in commissions."

    Okay, I'll concede that. Add a zero to my examples and it still doesn't add up.

    $5000 in commissions means $3000 to the seller, $500 to the Power Team Leader (not $5500), and $1500 to YTB. Happy?

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  30. the vacation stop:
    sorry about the name mistake.

    You are close: $5000 in commissions means $3000 to the RTA, $1000 ($500 + 10%) to the Power Team Leader, and $1000 to YTB

    but

    $8334 in commissions means $5000 to the seller (RTA), $6833 to the PTL and -$3499 to YTB

    because

    if an RTA earns $1000, YTB pays a 50% match and a 10% override to the PTL. If an RTA earns $5000 or more, YTB pays 50% on the first $1000, 100% match (capped at $5000) on $5000, plus 10% to the PTL. This is only applicable in the RTAs first 12 months, so it's rare, but it does happen. It is designed to motivate the Power Team leaders to help their RTAs to (guess what?) sell lots of travel.

    btw - you have a nice website. What does it cost to keep that puppy running each month?

    totaltravel.biz

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  31. Well, I have been shown YTB documents about the 10% override, but I haven't seen the others. For the sake of arguement, I'll concede this one. It still doesn't make sense to me, but that's okay, especially since as you state, it's rare that it happens.

    My website costs me $6.95 per month for hosting charges, and about $250/yr for the added content from Online Agency. I'd have to check my records for the exact amount, and I am away from my office as I type this. Anything that you see that has a URL that starts with www.thevacationstop.com is a page that I maintain myself. Anything that starts with pages.thevacationstop.com is content integrated in from online agency. There is also a linked in booking site at thevacationstop.outsideagents.com that is provided to me for nothing by my host agency. If I wanted to, I could just use that, but it is not customizeable.

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  32. Cool. Thanks.

    You're right - it doesn't seem to make economic sense, and I haven't seen anything about the 50% and $5k either. I just know that they do it because I know people that have received it. As I said, it is in place as an incentive - but for how long? Who knows?

    totaltravel.biz

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  33. The override goes directly to the Executives. From the 8K filed on 1/30/2008.


    Beyond providing for compensation payable to the Executive Officers in their roles as such, the Executive Employment Agreements acknowledge the Executive Officers’ existing ownership of overrides on RTA sales and monthly fees as follows: (i) each of J. Scott Tomer and J. Kim Sorensen owns an override on the RTA sales and monthly fees generated by Representative position #2 of the Company’s YourTravelBiz.com subsidiary’s sales organization equal to 50% of the monthly commissions and overrides earned by said position #2, paid on a monthly basis; and (ii) J. Lloyd Tomer owns an override on the RTA sales and monthly fees generated by Representative position #1 of the Company’s YourTravelBiz.com subsidiary’s sales organization equal to 100% of the monthly commissions and overrides earned by said position #1, paid on a monthly basis.

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