The FTC released their 2007 Top Twenty List and wow looks like these MLM travel companies have cleaned up. With positions 9, 13, and 19! Congratulations you broke the top ten! And since some of the MLM companies are striving to be number 1 on all the lists, I expect to see some substantial movement in 2008!
Take a bow and please keep your acceptance speeches to under 60 seconds, with YTB alone, the thank yous could take 303,000 minutes!
1 Identity Theft**And with the Buy 2 Fly Free Program and the Magazine program, YTB seems to have landed an unprecedented 4th spot on the list--#12
2 Shop-at-Home/Catalog Sales
3 Internet Services
4 Foreign Money Offers
5 Prizes/Sweepstakes and Lotteries
6 Computer Equipment and Software
7 Internet Auctions
8 Health Care Claims
9 Travel, Vacations, and Timeshares
10 Advance-Fee Loans and Credit Protection/Repair
11 Investments
12 Magazines and Buyers Clubs **
13 Business Opportunities and Work-at-Home Plans
14 Real Estate (Not Timeshares)
15 Office Supplies and Services
16 Telephone Services
17 Employ. Agencies/Job Counsel/Overseas Work
18 Debt Management/Credit Counseling
19 Multi-Level Mktg./Pyramids/Chain Letters
20 Charitable Solicitations
geez, I wonder how long it will take them to notice it's "the fraud list" ;-)
ReplyDeleteLOL at calling that a fraud list. Investments are now fraud? Real estate is now a scam! Sell your house quick!
ReplyDeleteYes, Shawn, if you follow the link it will take you to an FTC page entitled "FTC Releases List of Top Consumer Fraud Complaints in 2007".
ReplyDeleteHey it's not my list! Go laugh at the FTC.
ReplyDeleteBut I do question, fraud or not, why someone becomes involved with a company that operates in three or four of the top 20 on the FTC Fraud List.
I don't see retail stores on there, I don't see gas stations, 7-11's etc.
But travel is on there - and not travel MLMs.
ReplyDeleteSince travel is on the list, are you closing up shop?
There's fraud in every industry, and you know it.
It appears you were not forthright enough to mention that MLMs count for less than 1% of consumer complaints; business opportunities 1%; and TRAVEL 2%.
ReplyDeleteThe report also does not state the outcome of these complaints - they're just complaints.
Typical YTB response deflect, deflect and deflect.
ReplyDeleteDon't give me crap about not being forthright---I gave you the original link and the source.
ReplyDeleteYes travel is on there and once the products my company sells or represents makes this list three or four times, I will close up shop. But till then, I will be fine on my own.
And yes they are complaints, but the FTC felt they were valid enough to generate a report.
Need to know the name of someone there to bitch to---Anne Harrington, she is the Director of the division that handles travel fraud. I am sure she is VERY familiar with names such as YTB, TraverUs, Global, etc.
Hey John, don't think you thought this one through correctly before posting.
ReplyDeleteJohn said, "The FTC released their 2007 Top Twenty List and wow looks like these MLM travel companies have cleaned up. With positions 9, 13, and 19!"
Lets see, number 9 Travel, Vacations, and Timeshares
MLM is way down on the list at 19.
You and your traditional travel agents are way up the list at a shameful #9. Oh, I'm sure we have a couple of folks in there.
#9 Doesn't apply to us as we don't sell timeshares. LOL!
And #13, Business Opportunities and Work-at-Home Plans. Do you realize that there are a zillion of these out there that have nothing to do with travel?
I'd say you shot yourself in the foot on this one. Like I said, no doubt you didn't think it through. Seems like lately your getting desperate for something, somewhere, or whatever to post to discredit the network referral travel business. This one backfired on you.
Now, go wipe that egg off your face and let's hope you can come up with something of newsworthy value. ;>)
olescorekeeper
I agree. Next someone's going to claim they talked Anne Harrington, who got wind of the "Good Doctor" just so they could jump YTB right up there to the #1 spot!
ReplyDeleteMost of my clients "shop at home" so we can add #2.
How 'bout Internet Services at #3. How could you miss something so obvious John? We have a travel web site! We operate on the internet for goodness sake!
No argument about MLM being like a Lottery @ #5?
Surley your devious little mind could somehow tie this entire list to YTB or Travel MLM's.
Man you've been reaching this last week or so...
Is that why you're trying to bring TraVerus out of the closet? Do you need new material?
Come on John...you can do better than this.
YTB is a Multi Level Business Opportunity Selling Travel Websites and Travel.
ReplyDeleteThat sort of covers three of the top twenty. How is that reaching? Taking your magazine program--and I know it is internal and the 2 Fly Free program you approach the magazine and buyers club line.
If I wanted to reach, I could probably tie it all together to each one, but I didn't. But the three I did mention--well, you fall hard and handily into those categories.
There is no reaching here. Just as there seems to be no denial. As usual, when presented with something not easily refuted, it becomes a "reaching" post. Sort of like I was reaching when RCCL terminated you, IATAN terminated you, the CCL sale did not produce 30,000 cabins sold, Doc Seligman is about as real as Tinkerbell, your FL director is unaware of the difference between commissions and sales, etc., etc., etc.
So if you have some information or documentation that can refute why YTB and the rest do not belon to this list...bring it on or send it to Anne. I do have her email address if you like! Send me an email and I will provide it!
John said, "If I wanted to reach, I could probably tie it all together to each one, but I didn't. But the three I did mention--well, you fall hard and handily into those categories."
ReplyDeleteTHE FTC CALLS THEM "CATEGORIES"
Falling into a category is NOT unquestionably criminal. An honest internet services provider may fall in category #3, but NO complaints were filed against the company for fraud. To suggest that "MLM travel companies have "cleaned up" with positions 9, 13, 19" is pure speculative foolishness and misrepresenting the facts. John, you haven't a clue WHO (companies) exists in these categories.
Doug said, "Come on John...you can do better than this."
I'm not so sure about that Doug.
olescorekeeper
John;
ReplyDeleteTell you what...why don't e-mail Anne and ask her what the definition of Magazines and Buyer's Clubs are?
I can promise you Magazine subscriptions are defined by something like Publisher's Clearinghouse, and buyer's clubs like Sam's Club, Costco.
Not easily refuted?
You're the one trying to tie marketing tool into a subscription, and trying to tell everyone that a Thomas Cook program is now getting complaints because it’s tied to YTB.
I don’t know if I would want to refute a $584 Billion travel-related goods and services company just because you say it’s tied to this list?
Scorekeeper, send me an e-mail, or call me. You can find my info on my blog.
Thanks...
Doug..will do. Want to verify certain info first.
ReplyDeleteolescorekeeper
PS – I will open mouth for any of you to insert foot here.
ReplyDeleteOnly $6 Billion with LVI, not the $584 quoted at first.
Sorry.
reaching, grasping, scratching, clawing, gasping, scraping
ReplyDeleteJohn
ReplyDeletethe FTC puts up whatever info they can get their grubby little hands on whether it's fact or fiction. These are complaints that are sent in to the FTC. Whether there's anyhing backing them up or if they are just slander, it gets submitted and posted. Unless somethin is backed up with indisputable judicial jargon, it will always be an opinion. Wal-Mart had it's own complaints becoming public recore through the FTC. Maybe they're really one big fraud company. After all, they work their employees like slaves. They are skimpy on the raises. When you get close to retirement, they have been known to let you go just before, so they don't have to pay out your retirement plan. Despite all this, people still shop there.
And John continues scratching and clawing for "misinformation" that has absolutely nothing to it that states it as a fact.
ReplyDeleteAs long as it's anti-YTB, it's good enough for John... and must be true according to him.
It doesn't even have to be anti-YTB -- he'll tie YTB to it somehow regardless.
ReplyDeleteIt's amazing that considering how much he's learned, he still knows nothing, and now has resorted to making things up just to keep his blog alive.
Hmmm... I just looked in the FTC website and guess what I found about claims against YTB??
ReplyDeleteNOTHING!!!
I searched for
YTB
Your Travel Biz
YTB Travel Network
I just thought I'd point that out to you.
According to most of the people on here, YTB does not sell travel. They make their money from marketing, so how does 9 apply to anyone but TTAs?
ReplyDeleteFrom how I read it, the top complaint when people feel they've been 'frauded' is identity theft. I'm pretty sure 2 and 3 tie into that somehow. Most identity theft occurs when internet is involved.
According to past reports found on the website, MLM is moving down on the list, and travel is moving up.
Where did I say it was criminal? All I said was the FTC released a list and it looks like a travel MLM company wold qualify for several categories they listed. I did say that there might (note it was an afterthought and not bolded) be another one for YTB because of the magazine and @ Fly Free "buying club".
ReplyDeleteYou are right that they are only complaints. Did I say otherwise?
Proud, you likely will not find any reference to specific names on the FTC site until it has come to a resolution. I am sure most people of average intellect would understand that without it being pointed out. If they are investigating a company, the info is confidential. If it is resolved it is either for or against the company so until there is an action against a company, you likely will not see any names!
But again, it is interesting that three of the top vote getters are exactly the business that the Travel MLMs are in---selling travel (well sort of), selling business opportunities, and Multi Level Marketing.
You all yell at me because I call it a pyramid scheme--well look, the FTC classifies them in the same category so....
As to Anne and the magazines--not her area, as far as I know she handles travel, internet schemes and along with the USSS identity theft.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDelete"It doesn't even have to be anti-YTB -- he'll tie YTB to it somehow regardless.
It's amazing that considering how much he's learned, he still knows nothing, and now has resorted to making things up just to keep his blog alive."
“If it ain’t true, don’t say it.
If it ain’t right, don’t do it”
-Coach John F.
John said...
ReplyDelete"Where did I say it was criminal?"
You didn't use the word "criminal" but you did make an implication of fraud concerning MLM travel companies by citing the FTC fraud list. Therefore any fraud would be criminal if proven.
"All I said was the FTC released a list and it looks like a travel MLM company wold qualify for several categories they listed."
"Qualify"? I thinkith you may be back peddling a bit John.
Well now, lets go back to your opening statement where you said,
"The FTC released their 2007 Top Twenty List and wow looks like these MLM travel companies have cleaned up."
So what's up with that? Did you mean the "qualified" or "cleaned up"? Which is it?
olescorekeeper
This brings me to a point I have wondered for a long time:
ReplyDeleteDoug . . . why to you call John Freneye a friend? You go out of your way to be honorable in your replies to him and his anti-YTB rhetoric. Every time he hears your reasoned responses and then continues his anti-YTB rhetoric here and other places, he is talking about your business, also. I can see that he pushed you to the edge this time. Why not sooner?
I watch Hannity (my guy) and Colmes. Shawn believes from a conservative viewpoint and Alan from a liberal one. I do believe they are friends even though they differ on philosophy. Your "friendship" with John Freneye is different. John would like nothing more than to destroy your career with YTB. He is vehement in his angst toward YTB (and I might add "obsessed" with the number of blog entries about YTB). He might be nice in his replies to you personally, but he trashes YTB Corporate and its Founders as scam artists and continues to call YTB a scam or ruse on his blog, Travel Weekly and other forums. And this is the tip of the iceberg. I am certain that he is working behind the scenes and using any influence he has to communicate with movers and shakers in the travel industry (and certainly in the mainstream press) to trash YTB. And all with the sole purpose of what? . . . putting YTB (your career and livelihood) out of business.
John Freneye is not going to change his mind. You have given him very reasonable answers to his questions. And he continues the daily trashing of YTB back in your face (and all other RTAs) He is totally invested in this anti-YTB, anti-MLM crusade and nothing will change him. Again, it is not just a simple difference of opinion. He despises YTB from top to bottom and would like nothing more than to see the doors close in Wood River, IL.
My advice . . . find some other friends. You owe this guy nothing. Friends can have disagreements and still be friends. But friends do not spend a considerable amount of their time trying to use their influence to destroy the company that you have chosen to partner with. He is proud of what he is doing and he's on a crusade. He plays nice from time to time, but will stab you in the back any opportunity he has. I have been with YTB for nearly 5 years and know YTB the way you do. I have created wonderful relationships with people on my Team. I have worked hard to help them develop their businesses. It started out as a great plan B to go with my Plan A. It is now a career and I have finally found a career that I enjoy.
I do not hold John Freneye in high regard or do I respect him with his role as an activist. He is very successful with his traditional business. I'm sure he has worked hard to achieve the success he enjoys. I have, too, and I won't belittle his chosen career. But he certainly will use what influence he has to trash mine. He works daily to try to damage my business as an anti-YTB activist. He is bull-headed and could not admit he is wrong about anything part of YTB. It's the hand he has chosen to play. That's fine and he's free to do that. But I can certainly find better people to call my "friends".
LB-your post might make some sense if you knew what you were talking about. My "crusade" as you call it is not against YTB it is about MLM in general in the travel industry. As you have so eloquently pointed out you are defending your industry from someone you feel is trying to destroy it (which is not the case but you will not be convinced of that). Yet I am the anti-Christ for defending my industry from a bunch of Yahoos that were able to cough up $500 to get a card and pretend to be professional? What is the difference you jackass?
ReplyDeleteYou want to know how to shut me up? You first. Yes, that is right, the more you throw gas on the fire, the stronger it burns. If you were a Boy Scout you may have learned that.
Why YTB--I have said it before--you are public and some of your records are available. But mostly you embrace the idiocy of people like EAB and Proud, Cruisinman, Travelingman, umpteen anonymous posters and Ole Scorekeeper who really have a profound negative impact on your seriousnes and professionalism.
I have been to the meetings only to be told they were not done right. I have been given numbers by Scott Tomer to be told I don't understand. I post a list from the FTC and am told that I spun it. What the hell have YOU done to investigate the other side of the story other than to come on here and attempt to tell someone who they should talk to and who they should not.
Did I miss a memo? Was there a proclamation from God giving you the powers?
Personally, I do think YTB is legal. I also think that a very few people--mostly at the top and early adopters, will make money. The majority won't. People like you will say--YTB did not fail them, the people failed themselves. I agree. But when you design a system TO PURPOSELY fail at that level, I need to call it a scam. It may be a legal scam, but it is a scam nonetheless.
If you can do some math, .003% that is point zero, zero, three percent of the Reps will make more than $20K a year in YTB. That is a piss poor performance and you are all proud of that. And here you are demanding all sorts of respect. Go kiss my ass!
And you are a coward--sure you put the name in there, but I am sure like most of those in YTB, you are comfortable hiding behind a cloak of anonymity and just riding on the coat tails of Coach and Scott. You people (for the most part) are unoriginal, unthoughtful, and completely clueless of the industry--look at the threads where YTB TM is trying to explain the greatest program in the world--he has no clue.
Look at loudmouth Earl Allen Boek from the farm--he comes out today with more bullshit saying YTB paid $100 million dollars to the field this year?
Metre WIshom claims to have purchased several Mercedes and a Cocaine White Bentley convertible with YTB in less than a year of being in the program.
You fabricate people to build the business--Dr. Seligman anyone????
You bring in suspected scam artists. Read some of the recent comments on the Piccolo post for more information.
So if you are looking for respect, go the hell somewhere else and look for it because it certainly is not coming from me and to be honest with a post like that, you coward, I suspect you are not getting it from either side of the argument.
Five years in YTB--so what level director are you? Just curious as to how successful you are or if it is a figment of Coach's imagination just like most!
For everyone who didn't like this thread just wait until tomorrow. I heard there was BIG NEWS coming out in USA Today this week...I haven't seen it yet so it must be in tomorrow's paper.
ReplyDeleteJohn so eloquently said,
ReplyDelete"you jackass
piss poor
Go kiss my ass!
you are a coward
bullshit
you coward"
Seriousness and professional behavior? Or school ground gutter language?
"the idiocy of people like EAB and Proud, Cruisinman, Travelingman, umpteen anonymous posters and Ole Scorekeeper who really have a profound negative impact on your seriousness and professionalism."
Hey, and I thought we were friends.
Damn ibtravel, see what ya gone and did. John doesn't like me anymore.
olescorekeeper
Well, this blog does belong to John, and he can say whatever he wants to on it, as long as what he says is not libelous or slanderous. If you don't like what is written here, don't come here, or better yet, start your own blog (like Doug did) to counter anything said.
ReplyDeleteWell - if I read the list correct - it's top consumer complaints list - not an ftc list of what they "deem" frauds.
ReplyDeleteAnd - by the way - travel, which everyone on here is apart of - is highest on the list - too funny . . .
Not mlm travel, or nwm travel - but travel in general - YOU ARE all frauds if you try to blend in travel mlms.
Actually - I don't see the category - Travel MLM on the list ? ? ?
Tom
Wow John, I had to read that twice. Not quite sure I've ever seen you that pissed off before, but I can't say it wasn't deserved.
ReplyDeleteSome days this blog makes your blood boil, the same run-around, the same bait and switch, the same "lol-to funny". Nothing gets through. Its like banging your head on a brick wall.
Not looking for respect from you. I don't need it. Doug can do what he wants. He has been totally reasonable and a gentleman in trying to explain our business model and why many of us enjoy what we do on a daily basis. You play nice and then turn around and continue to call his career and others a scam, ruse and any other name you can come up with(sounds like the new terminology from you is "Yahoo". It must mean that Doug's RTAs are Yahoos, too. My guess is that you talking about some of Doug's closest friends and colleages)
ReplyDeleteI'm confident you are working behind the scenes with emails and calls to do damage to YTB. Fine . . . enjoy your calling. Someone with those motives are certainly not going to get my vote for "my good friend, John".
Looks like I struck a nerve . . . usually where there's smoke, there's fire.
Hey John, I went to the auto store today to get a replacement headlight bulb for my wife's car. It didn't work, so I brought it back and got one that did work. I had a complaint. Does that make the auto store fraudulant???
ReplyDeleteLOL!!!
The next time you put up a topic claiming hat it's a fraud topic... make sure it is and not just a catagorized percentage of complaints.
Hi,
ReplyDeleteI found your site as I was looking for the ways to complain about businesses. In my search, I have also found a site dedicated to business complaints.
You can see a lot of complaints about different companies or you can complaint about business yourself.
Regards